For
the fans of alternate history
“What
is your favorite AH timeline? Mine's Monarchy World by Tony Jones”
“thirteen
colonies
Jump
off a fucking cliff whilst stabbing yourself in the dick”
“The
one where Hitler wins.”
“
>China
>Powerful
colonial empire
In
to the trash.
My
favourite alternative history is based on the religious and cultural
differences certain events could create not playing EU4 and painting
maps.”
“W-why
is Europe balkanized?
Alt
history is retarded if you don't provide a backstory, this map tells
me nothing. Too much interpretation to be fun”
“Google
it man.
“No
fuck you, I shouldn't have to do my own research if you want people
to be interested in your shitty support group.”
“Basically
the backstory is that China became more westernized in the early
1700's, and this caused a different Seven Years' War. A successful
Albany Congress prevented the American Revolution, and France
Balkanized in 1798. Now, the world is controlled by Britain, China,
and Russia in a careful nuclear balance of power.”
“I've
only really read Harry Turtledove as far as alternate history goes,
but I thought his whole Great War arc was pretty good.”
“>huge
paintbucket map-fill in empires
unironically
off yourself”
“I
didn't make this”
“>realistic
alternate history timelines.
I
wish such thing existed.”
I
mean, i've seen some pretty realistic ones. One of my personal faves
is Decades of Darkness, where the New England states seceded from the
Union in 1811 and became independent with support from the British.
This was actually very close to happening and only was averted when
Jefferson repealed the Embargo Act. it's probably one of the most
realistic one out there imo
Go play EU4 you literal aspie, how dare you come to my board and post this stupid nonsense. Because that's not history, you baboon. Literal monkey, go back to althistory wiki, you autistic faggot.
Go play EU4 you literal aspie, how dare you come to my board and post this stupid nonsense. Because that's not history, you baboon. Literal monkey, go back to althistory wiki, you autistic faggot.
Crawl to your lonelyness in whatever Paradox shit game you're playing right now and shove that map up your ass. You're worse than the wewuzers, because you admit that you're fucking asperger fart loving cuckold foot fetish trap faggot.
If I ever have to cross myself to your putrid spirit, post or pestilence, I promise that I will search for you and deport you to your asylum so you can get buttfucked by retards and crazy lobotomized assholes. Good day
hat is your favorite AH timeline?
Drowned Baby Timeline.
>broken france >brits own everything >thirteen colonies >independent quebec >chinese colonization Fuck off
Why does everybody use this stupid compromise projection?
Stick to either equal-area or conformal. Compromise projections are stupid.
The
big picture stuff in this series is pretty alright but god damn does
turtledove love to repeat himself. By the time i finished I'd read
the words "zinc oxide" enough times to last me a
lifetime.
But anon, it's [spoiler]fun[/spoiler]
t. butt flustered anglo
>Fuck >Off That's fairly reasonable assuming a Napoleonic victory.
Wanting to kill one of the greatest leader of human history
I like alternate history but I hate the alternate history community. Everything is written off as impossible because of muh "ASB" and the butterfly effect is taken too far. They also obsess over muh "POD" because they're too autistic to imagine a different world without having some overly contrived backstory. The majority of alternate history discussions I see go nowhere because of the aforementioned autism. Also I hate the overused, completely unnecessary acronyms. Oh and AlternateHistoryHub is absolute shit.
>t. brainlet
How so?
The one where Frederick III doesn't smoke.
Whoops, I didn't think there was an alt-his map thread
Rate my WIP → exxagerated-scope map
Here's a link to a small imageboard where I've written down some basics of my Alt-history. I'm thinking of revising it soon. pls rate
Moving discussion of the map to this thread
The Chin Empire rises. Very funny. What about mine, between your posts?
Because if you don't have at least a working model of how things would go from a point of divergence (because that's how causality works) onward, all questions and all answers become equally meaningful.
It's like if you said "If the Confederates won the Civil War, would they support the Nazis?" I suppose we could answer this question from the perspective of the Confederate government in 1864, but even then you run into the problem of changes between the two times and cultures.
If we wanted to answer it meaningfully, we would have to establish exactly how Confederate politics and culture are likely to go, and whether or not Nazism is even likely to exist. Otherwise, all questions become inane and meaningless.
This is the first sentence of your ocalthis:
But anon, it's [spoiler]fun[/spoiler]
t. butt flustered anglo
>Fuck >Off That's fairly reasonable assuming a Napoleonic victory.
Wanting to kill one of the greatest leader of human history
I like alternate history but I hate the alternate history community. Everything is written off as impossible because of muh "ASB" and the butterfly effect is taken too far. They also obsess over muh "POD" because they're too autistic to imagine a different world without having some overly contrived backstory. The majority of alternate history discussions I see go nowhere because of the aforementioned autism. Also I hate the overused, completely unnecessary acronyms. Oh and AlternateHistoryHub is absolute shit.
>t. brainlet
How so?
The one where Frederick III doesn't smoke.
Whoops, I didn't think there was an alt-his map thread
Rate my WIP → exxagerated-scope map
Here's a link to a small imageboard where I've written down some basics of my Alt-history. I'm thinking of revising it soon. pls rate
Moving discussion of the map to this thread
The Chin Empire rises. Very funny. What about mine, between your posts?
Because if you don't have at least a working model of how things would go from a point of divergence (because that's how causality works) onward, all questions and all answers become equally meaningful.
It's like if you said "If the Confederates won the Civil War, would they support the Nazis?" I suppose we could answer this question from the perspective of the Confederate government in 1864, but even then you run into the problem of changes between the two times and cultures.
If we wanted to answer it meaningfully, we would have to establish exactly how Confederate politics and culture are likely to go, and whether or not Nazism is even likely to exist. Otherwise, all questions become inane and meaningless.
This is the first sentence of your ocalthis:
>Here's North America. The US succeeds in 1812, and releases Quebec as an ally
The USA is bordergory at places, the change of names the north and south were funny, internalkek/10
Geopolitical evolution is pretty logical, fine map in terms of borders, I thought Georgia was missing 1 pixel from a distance
True, and that's all very well if you're writing an in depth alternate history timeline or basing your question off a very specific change to the course of the Civil War that allowed the South to win. Sometimes though, I don't think such detail is necessary. Often I see fairly broad questions being asked on alternate history forums and the question never gets answered because everyone is so caught up on getting a "perfect" or "realistic" POD. For example, with the question you used, I think for many people it would be sufficient to just pretend that the South won a significant battle that in reality they lost, and this had flow-on effects that allowed them to win. I don't think the POD always has to go down to an individual-specific levels where X married Y instead of Z or X died at the age of 11 from a fever or whatever.
Is that bad?
I thought Yankeedom had great borders. The Ohio and Mississippi rivers make up most of them. The only issue I see is that Quebec still has land on the southern side of the St. Lawrence, but that's realistic. Thanks for the rest.
>Franz Ferdinand doesn't get killed, but becomes ruler >A-H is now the USGA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_Greater_Austria) >the Russian subjugated states are independent >Belgium is split up between France and the Netherlands
My only issue with this map is that Bulgaria is too large, Belarus, Ukraine and the Caucasus should arguably be Russian, and that the British might be pissed off at Ireland. All minorities in the empires (Poles in the German, Kurds etc in the Ottoman, Germans in the Russian) get autonomy but still pay taxes to the respective state.
Don't know how this timeline could emerge, though, probably only with a Central Powers victory against Russia and Britain, with France remaining neutral. One of my favourite timelines is this one: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/twilight-of-the-red-tsar.371831/ The point of divergence is Stalin surviving stroke, living on for a number of years but going pretty mental. Includes the second holocaust, a war with Mao's China and a very nervous Tito. >pic unrelated
Another problem is AH.com is filled with Anglos and Angloboos.
KR is unarguably the best alt-history work.
The opposite is the kind of stuff you see in threads on here (which usually gets shut down rather quickly in the actual althis communities). >what side would the Byzantines fight for in WW2? >one millionth Axis wank >let me fill in this template from /int/ with my perfect vision of the world
Okay, are there any posts in this thread you don't hate? Which ones?
for the Zionists are clever and ruthlessly deceptive.” The message of the speech was clear: Stalin's war on the Jews had begun.
Fuck off you retarded piece of reddit shit
Germany would have definitely annexed Zambia and Namibia, giving that to South Africa and Portugal seems a bit odd.
>I like alternate history but I hate the alternate history community. Everything is written off as impossible
Back in the day, I was a regular on Usenet’s soc.history.what-if newsgroup (which is still reasonably active) and I would complain on occasion about the same thing; too many people immediately looking for ways that an alternate timeline wasn’t possible and not enough people having some fun trying to make it work.
Still, the strict adherence to historical accuracy (and a single point-of-departure) is what made it interesting, because it’s just lazy writing to toss in alien space bats and have Roman legions battling Nazis or some such.
The excellent Drowned Baby Timeline I mentioned above was posted serially on s.h.w-i with lots of commentary from contributors and is a great read with some LOL moments (such as Marilyn Monroe as an OSS agent) while remaining historically logical because it towed the line.
I think I can post the map this thread without being identified as spam
I think you're overestimating the amount of autism that goes into the *average* POD. The only reason a POD like the one you suggested probably wouldn't be accepted is because it's generally believed that the fall of the CSA would be very difficult to avoid, even if they won say, Gettysburg.
South Africa already held Namibia.
But one of Germany's earliest demands was the restoration of former imperial colonies such as South West Africa. In case of an Axis victory the Nazis would have certainly forced South Africa to return Namibia.
>the entire world being Catholic My anglo genes are enraged and disgusted
Lol romanian one's a tic tac toe
More like a #
why not use the historical ones for germany and france?
no Turkish flag or Bosnian flag
Perhaps even more relevant
>in nearly every alternate universe india is never independent Very mean.
tfw
no Adolfivir Hitlervich to lead a NatSoc revolution in
Rußland
https://youtu.be/CpvAdeAv8KI [Embed]
This tbqh famalam
Why would a fascist Britain abide an independent fascist Ireland?
India gets shit treatment in general https://www.alternatehistory.com/wiki/doku.php?id=alternate_history:bland_united_india
I'm a little annoyed but i can't blame them. We're very weak at exporting our culture so the only thing people know about us is curry,BJj and that snake flute thing.
tfw living in the non-NorthAmericanUnion timeline
Pain
will what if posters ever recover?
My favorite timeline is the one that doesn't result in me being born.
Except for netherlands,Bulgaria, amd french bordet it looks almost exactly like kaiserreich
https://youtu.be/CpvAdeAv8KI [Embed]
This tbqh famalam
Why would a fascist Britain abide an independent fascist Ireland?
India gets shit treatment in general https://www.alternatehistory.com/wiki/doku.php?id=alternate_history:bland_united_india
I'm a little annoyed but i can't blame them. We're very weak at exporting our culture so the only thing people know about us is curry,BJj and that snake flute thing.
tfw living in the non-NorthAmericanUnion timeline
Pain
will what if posters ever recover?
My favorite timeline is the one that doesn't result in me being born.
Except for netherlands,Bulgaria, amd french bordet it looks almost exactly like kaiserreich
It's
another wehraboo alt-history map >Germany/Japan
staging a successful invasion of the USA let alone the British
Isles
Not so much alternate history, but I like to imagine what America would look like if it acted upon all of its proposed territorial expansions and refused to give any up.
I try to always balkanize India (the current division is silly and boring) but almost always have it partially or totally independent.
Most people think that the snake flute thing is arab/muslim
>tfw no American-Africa
except for the second american civil war, that is honestly just dumb and added so that in the game America has something to do
Cool. IMO I think at best there should be atleast three separate states for North India, Central India and the Deccan.
It's an ancient Egyptian thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_charming But I see it a lot for us in foreign media as well.
You mean a program to protect and spread democratic ideals to the continent so that the imperialistic monarchs do not exploit the poor afircan people
The Americans bought North Borneo at one point, just didn't keep it
I try to have much more than that. Once I tried to have a smaller modern India based around an evolution of the "confederated" states of the Maratha Empire. But the research to propeerly do it proved too exhausting for me considering my small knowledge.
I prefer the version where Russia is NEVER fascist.
What do you guys do/would do with North Asia in timelines where Russia is weak or barely exists as an empire? Central Asia is easy to fill with khanates that existed historically but the rest is basically Africa tier.
>luxembourg, bosnia, macedonia, and moldova aren't european >syria and iran are
It does make sense since America got an economic boon by stealing German copyrights and Germany was their main economic competitor in the Western Hemisphere.
Sorry if image comes up too large for your screen. Also the shitty app I used to make this kept crashing when I tried to insert an SVG of the Tsar's coat of arms so I had to resort to using a similar looking one (it's House of Doria).
The idea behind this one is the USSR and the fascist (federalized) EU are locked in a perpetual state of war and some conservative movement in the USSR wants to reform Tsarist Russia. This is the flag.
if europe converted to islam instead of christianity.
>no luxembourg, bosnia, macedonia, moldavia and turkey >but syria and iran
Haha, can just imagine Europe converting to Islam instead of Christianity and the middle east became Christian as Europe is in real life. Then ISEA (Islamic State of Europe and Asia) rews up shit in their capital Sarajevo and thousands of white muslims get paid to emigrate to the middle east and there they live like they fancy while their Arab government jerks them off.
Beautiful.
Turtledove is also a weird fetishist and is terrible with characters
Mosley was actually in favour of Irish independence (he left the Conservative party over it) and wanted to give NI back to the Irish.
I think its mostly because these countries don't yet have relevant far right groups.
t.Macedonian.
ASB Alternatehistory.com has a pretty shitty and autistic community.
Those are all non-countries so they can't be european countries
Apart from the trigger-happy mods, it's the best place for the topic of alternate history.
I've always like the Fallout universe, but the backstory is very bare bones, which I find surprising for an RPG.
Not so much alternate history, but I like to imagine what America would look like if it acted upon all of its proposed territorial expansions and refused to give any up.
I try to always balkanize India (the current division is silly and boring) but almost always have it partially or totally independent.
Most people think that the snake flute thing is arab/muslim
>tfw no American-Africa
except for the second american civil war, that is honestly just dumb and added so that in the game America has something to do
Cool. IMO I think at best there should be atleast three separate states for North India, Central India and the Deccan.
It's an ancient Egyptian thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_charming But I see it a lot for us in foreign media as well.
You mean a program to protect and spread democratic ideals to the continent so that the imperialistic monarchs do not exploit the poor afircan people
The Americans bought North Borneo at one point, just didn't keep it
I try to have much more than that. Once I tried to have a smaller modern India based around an evolution of the "confederated" states of the Maratha Empire. But the research to propeerly do it proved too exhausting for me considering my small knowledge.
I prefer the version where Russia is NEVER fascist.
What do you guys do/would do with North Asia in timelines where Russia is weak or barely exists as an empire? Central Asia is easy to fill with khanates that existed historically but the rest is basically Africa tier.
>luxembourg, bosnia, macedonia, and moldova aren't european >syria and iran are
It does make sense since America got an economic boon by stealing German copyrights and Germany was their main economic competitor in the Western Hemisphere.
Sorry if image comes up too large for your screen. Also the shitty app I used to make this kept crashing when I tried to insert an SVG of the Tsar's coat of arms so I had to resort to using a similar looking one (it's House of Doria).
The idea behind this one is the USSR and the fascist (federalized) EU are locked in a perpetual state of war and some conservative movement in the USSR wants to reform Tsarist Russia. This is the flag.
if europe converted to islam instead of christianity.
>no luxembourg, bosnia, macedonia, moldavia and turkey >but syria and iran
Haha, can just imagine Europe converting to Islam instead of Christianity and the middle east became Christian as Europe is in real life. Then ISEA (Islamic State of Europe and Asia) rews up shit in their capital Sarajevo and thousands of white muslims get paid to emigrate to the middle east and there they live like they fancy while their Arab government jerks them off.
Beautiful.
Turtledove is also a weird fetishist and is terrible with characters
Mosley was actually in favour of Irish independence (he left the Conservative party over it) and wanted to give NI back to the Irish.
I think its mostly because these countries don't yet have relevant far right groups.
t.Macedonian.
ASB Alternatehistory.com has a pretty shitty and autistic community.
Those are all non-countries so they can't be european countries
Apart from the trigger-happy mods, it's the best place for the topic of alternate history.
I've always like the Fallout universe, but the backstory is very bare bones, which I find surprising for an RPG.
>im
a brainlet that cant imagine anything not grounded to facts: the
post
Dude, no, alt-history is just arguing to some preposterous conclusion and then filling in what you think makes sense giving no autonomy or power to any of the actors in your scenario, it's literally like saying what's going to happen 100 years from now because x did y.
>it's literally like saying what's going to happen 100 years from now because x did y. What's wrong with that?
why are you so angry?
working on an alt-history novel, gist of it is pretty much this
>Man in the High Tower ripoff on the surface >diverges after the initial invasion of the US >instead of steamrolling the US and annexing it, Germans are bogged down across the East Coast >meet fierce, brutal and bitter resistance from anything North of New York and South of D.C >Veterans of the Victorious Battle of Stalingrad and Moscow fight Old Yankees in the coldest winter in New English history >SS have to deal with an elusive KKK trying to take advantage of the instability to make the South rise again and savage reprisals in the Deep South and claustrophobic Wetlands >Pentecostal Mountain Men dancing with snakes and talking in tongues before ambushing fallschirmjagers in Appalachia >Texans and Tejanos come together to fight an enemy that severely outguns them while contending with Mexican Nationalists >German Americans face a dilemma in the Pacific Northwest as German troops land from Kamchatka with the help of the Japanese Pretty much its /k/'s wet dream, still trying to figure out how to work the Natives in
The neo Confederates could propose Oklahoma becoming native only state/buffer zone if they side with them, as was pretty much the actual Confederates plan for the territory.
That... is a great idea, I was going to originally just make the KKK side with the SS but that just seemed predictable and uninteresting. I want to push it, even going so far as having some African Americans side with the SS with the promise of security from the marauding Klansmen, the true reason why they would haev to do this is because the Klan and Natives would prove a lot more difficult to put down than they though and with the war becoming more and more unpopular back home as casualties mount
Pretty much, turn the invasion of the US into Germany's Vietnam War
a lot of it is left open to whatever you want it to be really....essentially the POD is sometime after ww2
Probably, though I could see it happening if, say, a Boer rebellion took over SA before the British surrendered. Plus the KKK would NEVER side with the SS, they were white supremacists rather than Aryan Nordicists. The ideological divide would make any kind of alliance incredibly unstable. Think the alliance between the Northern Alliance and the USA.
I did some research on the two and apparently the Germans thought the KKK were the epitome of American savagery. On top of that, most people from the south are WASPs so I would imagine there would be some conflict of interest between them and Aryan Nordicists
Idea for a central MacGuffin:
Gadget, the only bomb which Los Alamos managed to crank out before the invasion. They attempted to transport it by rail to the front, but it got lost en route. Now, several of the forces have heard the rumor and are trying to get it.
Thats a good idea, the original MacGuffin was that the remnants of the US Army were regrouping in the Heartland and other "safe" parts of the country and the subplots revolve around average Americans and Veterans trying to hold out for them for as long as possible (or try to establish their own country before they get their shit together) The Texan front would end up being the most decisive, since they really are the last line of defense before the Wehrmacht can move in on the US Army while they're licking their wounds
What about the Mormons?
Battle of the Alamo Part 2
Rus not russia!!1
Ree
They're in the "safe" zone for the most part, since it seems people are interested, how about some map autism.
Feel free to chip in with any historical or strategic significance a location or city may have
They should immediately secede to become Deseret, arm their borders to the teeth, and have absolutely no laws against their nationals going to work as mercenaries for the Texans, or any other group. Spoiler: none of them work for the Germans.
What few remain and the ww1 trilogy are the best parts of that series and some of the best alternate history I've read. The Interwar and ww2 books felt like a burden to read, I felt that he stuck too close to the ww2 parallels to the point that even having a generic knowledge of ww2 you know everything thats gonna happen.
I was thinking of the US falling into a loose confederation while the Federal Government scrambles to get its shit together, the story will take place after just a couple of months of the initial invasion and subsequent Blitz before it gets bogged down. Utah could become Deseret, Texas would be its own thing, California/Arizona/New Mexico/Nevada are still under the original Federal Government, the Great Lake States come together and the majority of the Plains and Midwest becomes the Heartland.
The PNW will be a new front that has the local population fighting each other over who to side with and Northern New England is going to turn into a frozen, soul crushing hellhole
Southern Idaho and most of Nevada should be annexed by Deseret, as well as any other borderlands that have many Mormons, causing problems between Deseret and its neighbors. Also, you should treat Canada as part of the US, since it would, obviously, also get invaded. It would likely have the UK government in exile.
>Also, you should treat Canada as part of the US, since it would, obviously, also get invaded. It would likely have the UK government in exile.
Thats a great idea, could also add to Northern New England becoming a quagmire, the Old Yankees, who as far as the Germans are concerned are cut off from everyone, are getting supplies and weapons from the French Canadians and Exiled UK/English Canada.
When the Germans realize this, they'll try to move in as fast as possible to stop this only to be defeated in a decisive battle that forces them to pull out of Maine and New Hampshire, leaving Old Yankees free to prepare for an offensive against Occupied Southern New England.
At the same time this is happening, resistance movements in Europe could start flaring up
>WASPs What is that?
White Anglo Saxon Protestants
Some people say W is wealthy.
alt history fucking sucks
Empty America is great
Turtledove's book series featuring modern day Roman-Byzantine and Sassanid Persian Empires surviving and quelling the rise of Islam were pretty cool.
Empty America please explain
It is Wealthy. You literally can't be called a WASP if you're poor.
le reddit face
What an eccentric performance.
And you can't be a non-white Anglo-Saxon.
Most alt history is pure garbage, even things that are considered "good" like Stirling and Turtledove are exercises in pure brainletry.
Yep, that's a good point too. The very term WASP was created to denote people like the Boston Brahmins, extremely wealthy, old money Anglos from the northeast, and it was a term created by their critics who considered them to be too powerful. Some Billy Bob living in his trailer in Alabama sure as all fuck isn't a WASP.
You could imagine : 1) France and Netherlands attack Belgium, Uk counterattacks, Ireland rises, the Uk have no choice but making peace. 2) In the mean time, AH attacks Serbia because reasons (I mean, they hated each other, so any casus belli would fit), so Russia attacks AH, so Germany attacks Russia, pretty much ww1 except France don't attack Germany because they are invading Belgium. So Germany wins and the Russian Tsardom collapses. One big flaw : why would France attack Belgium ?
Harry turtledoves "How few remain" the South wins the civil war but from the outcome the U.S. becomes a greater superpower. So far the series is great.
Man I havent heard pleb since middleschool
Someone who wants Wallonia for France, and agrees to let the Netherlands have Flanders.
Look at the spread of German Americans, there are far less in the Northwest than say Cincinnati or Pittsburgh, especially then. Maybe the "5th column" is real? I'm from Cincinnati, and many of my family spoke German at the time, patriotism overcome by expediance? It may seem typical, but throwing some in will ground it a bit.
Following this up, it might be interesting if the PNW insurgency was the ethnic coblepot it became irl. There are strong anti-japanese sentiments, but less so German. As Japanese involvement expands, new insurgents strain the unity of the forces. The Germans can't focus here, and continue to funnel experienced allied troops into Washington. What happened to China btw? Perhaps veterans of Nanjing, brought to the us as a break for brutal warfare in Asia act out as they did in China, driving the local Japanese and German commanders apart. Glorious Baltic Empire circa mid-Migration period/early mid-Vendel. Post collapse Roman empire filling a vacuum of petty kings in Europe pre-Christianization.
Isn't it beautiful?
It would've been Harry Turtledove's Southern Victory but it takes the WW2 parallels way too far.
If anything, Turtledove should've paralleled the Troubles in Northern Ireland or the Indo-Pakistani conflict, where the CSA and USA are both plagued with low-level violence in the border states (i.e. Kentuckians who want back into the Union and Ohioians who want to join the Confederacy). Maybe ended it with the two nations starting to mend relations because of their allying together in the World Wars.
Also, Southern Victory's narrative pretty much completely falls apart post-WW1. It makes no sense how Germany, the CSA, USA, and UK could develop atomic bombs independent of each other at the same time. Or how the Freedom Party could think killing off 40% of their country's population was practical, let alone a good idea (that's about as nonsensical as Mexico trying to exterminate its entire Amerindian population). The only reason Germany got away with it was the fact Jews were a tiny minority in every occupied territory except Poland.
Worse yet, Turtledove ditched the budding Mormon conflict which was actually interesting for "Confederate Hitler gasses the niggers". And if he absolutely had to go with a Holocaust parallel, the Mormons would have made the best placeholder for the Jews. Think about it, the Mormons are a small well-educated religious sect that are hated with extreme vitriol by Americans and treated with neglect by Confederates. It would've made the perfect cocktail for a genocide.
If I were to do a rewrite Southern Victory post-WW1, here's how I'd do it
Gordon McSweeney actually survives the war and becomes the Hitler-like figure combined with a corrupted form of Puritanical Christianity that he was supposed to be. His rule represents the Puritans' legacy from oppressed to oppressors coming full circle (hence why he is a descendant of Mayflower settlers) and as well as the final corruption of United States that began with its loss in the Civil War in the form of discarding the centuries-old Institution of Separation of Church and State and embarking on a campaign of religious-motivated mass murder.
Mormons are expelled from Utah after their uprisings in WW1 and dispersed across to urban centers across the continent. After seizing power in the 1930s McSweeney singles them as being responsible for everything wrong with the country. Mormons in chains, ghettoized, stripped of their rights. The Confederacy, while not as overtly anti-Mormon being largely indifferent to their plight (i.e. turning back Mormon refugees at St. Louis, Missouri in parallel to the SS St. Louis incident).
The Second World War starts, and the persecution of Mormons rapidly escalates into a campaign of extermination. Entire neighborhoods of Mormons are forced onto trains bound for death camps built deep in the American interior (if Turtledove really wanted to draw a disturbing parallel, making the sites of Japanese interment camps like Terminal Island and Topaz into TL-191's equivalent of Westerbork and Auschwitz would've been a good one). The Confederacy finally gaining the upper hand (perhaps Featherston could've served as a Stalin/Tito-like figure who keeps the CSA's racial strife "under control" through brute force) and advancing into the American West, only to discover the horrors of the "solution" to the Mormon problem in the form of the camps. Maybe Generals Eisenhower and Patton looking on at piles of emaciated bodies (as they did at Ohrdruf), their revulsion and anger, and coming to the realization that their country had utterly failed to heed warnings that something terrible was happening and now millions were dead because of it.
The United States become such a hated and despised nation that the Confederates are compelled to change their own national flag (the Stars and Bars is still the official Confederate flag in the book IIRC) to avoid the stigma of its resemblance to the US flag. Thereby forever severing its ties to the old United States.
The fight for national survival against the United States in the Second Great War and the horrifying revelations of the Mormon Holocaust finally break the Confederacy free of the spell of Jim Crow and slavery and force it to adopt radical social reform from within, much as WW2 did for the United States as a whole. Perhaps a young Baptist minister from Atlanta named Martin takes the lead in advocating this change.
And since this board just loves to talk about a certain Jewish girl from the Netherlands and I think Turtledove wasted a perfectly good opportunity to parallel the actual Holocaust by featuring a prominent victim's reaction to the same thing occurring in another part of the world...
Anne Frank, who's just living in the Netherlands, enjoying a fairly /comfy/ life, becomes pen pals with a Mormon girl who mysteriously disappears after the war begins. Anne is deeply distraught by this and in the late 1940s journeys to the former United States (now under Confederate occupation) to try and discover her friend's fate. Over the course of her travels, Anne discovers her friend had gone into hiding, was betrayed, captured, and murdered along with her entire family by the US Government in a concentration camp. And that Jews, Confederate and American alike had either been indifferent to the persecution of Mormons or actively participated in it.
So moved she is, by her friend's plight and so enraged at the callous indifference of her fellow Jews displayed in the face of it (maybe a verbal altercation with Saul Goldman could highlight), that Anne converts to Mormonism, marries Helmuth Hübener (a Mormon who was executed for opposing the Nazis OTL) and not only names her own children after the dead girl and her family, but arranges to have their correspondence published and becomes wildly popular in the post-war Confederate States as a result. Capitalizing on her newfound fame, Anne demands that the Confederate States bring justice to those responsible for "Mormocaust". In a parallel to the Nuremberg Trials, Henry Ford is executed for using Mormon slave labor in his factories, as is Father Coughlin for using his radio program to incite anti-Mormon pogroms. Thereby elevating Anne Frank to great fame she had in our timeline, but with the tragic twist. She serves what was her father's role, caretaker for the dead.
In the final scene, Anne does a book tour in the CSA, meeting with the soldiers of the Confederate unit that liberated the camp her friend died in. So moved are they by Anne's telling how her friend suffered and died that these battle-hardened veterans are reduced to tears and elect to gift her with one of their old battle flags as a keepsake. Anne accepts it and has it placed at the front door of a museum dedicated to the victims.
Yeah, but why would the French Republic attacks a country it supported like 50 years ago.
Just wrote this in the Huey Long thread:
And I asked you where you stole it. World is a small place.
Who knows?
>SS have to deal with an elusive KKK trying to take advantage of the instability to make the South rise again and savage reprisals in the Deep South and claustrophobic Wetlands
"I'd sooner see you marry a nigger than a Kraut." -Great-grandfather who was in the Klan in the 20s and lost one of his closest friends in WW2
Sage advice desu
I've been reading through "A Shift in Priorities".
It starts in the middle of WW1 and is pretty pro-Germany and at least as far as I've gotten pretty anti-American, but it's still pretty fun and interesting. There's a lot of attention to detail (he goes through painstaking efforts to make all events at least seem believable in context even if ultimately they aren't plausible), and it goes slow enough that the author has a chance to see what a lot of irl historical figures are up to in the alternate timeline.
It was started years ago but last I checked it was still being updated.
China gets broken, with no US around to meddle with their plans they steamroll across the Pacific. Meanwhile in Europe, Germany puts down any resistance movements that pop up, instead of fucking with the Ukrainians they establish a strong alliance and BTFO the Russians.
The Japanese funnel their Veterans who fought in the Northern parts of China to the PNW campaign, Germany splits their Eastern Front veterans to Northern New England and for the Texas Offensive, the same goes for their legitimately Elite Waffen SS units while the shitty ones are stuck dealing with the KKK in Dixie and Mountain men in Appalachia. I was thinking of having the Dixie story through the eyes of a German SS officer who fell from grace and got stuck in one of the shitty, undisciplined SS units in the South
Kind of the sentiment I was shooting for, their hate for the Germans will only fester when the SS starts to enlist local African Americans to act as scouts, spies and even Anti-Partisans once things start to get very ugly and the strain on manpower and supplies gets stronger.
In the eyes of the KKK they'll go from being murdering invaders stopping them from bringing about the CSA to nigger loving, murdering invaders stopping them from bringing about the CSA, the ultimate enemy as far as they're concerned
How's your progress on it? Any other plot points of note? Will American Jews suffer the same fate as their European cousins? Will the Germans still go ahead with Generalplan Ost even as they become bogged down in a brutal guerrilla war in America? Will we see Anne Frank being seemingly chased by the Gestapo through the Louisiana swamps, only for the SS troopers to be ambushed, captured, and savagely lynched by Klansmen who used her as bait to draw them into a trap?
If the South Had Won the Civil War by MacKinlay Kantor was better desu. I appreciated that there's a reconciliation between North and South that culminates in the former enemies fighting side by side against the tyranny of Nazism.
Given that France and Britain had a deadly rivalry that lasted almost a millennia, but forged a lasting friendship in the World Wars, I think the idea of the Confederate and United States having a similar detente in the face of an enemy that threatens to destroy them both is under-appreciated genre of alternate history literature.
>How's your progress on it?
I'm in the pre-writing right now, I'm but a lowly amateur writer/Mechanic student whose still figuring it all out in all honesty but I've always wanted to write a novel.
>Will American Jews suffer the same fate as their European cousins?
Pretty much, the only real resistance that they put together as a people is in New York City but its mired with infighting and betrayals i.e the ones who are Communist getting set up by the ones who want to "Keep it American", old grudges still standing between families and the Gestapo cracking down hard on the City
>Will the Germans still go ahead with Generalplan Ost
In this timeline they totally dominate in the European Front, pretty much everything that can go right goes right for the Germans
>Will we see Anne Frank being seemingly chased by the Gestapo through the Louisiana swamps, only for the SS troopers to be ambushed, captured, and savagely lynched by Klansmen who used her as bait to draw them into a trap?
There will be now, what I was wanting to go for with the KKK is for the reader to get this eerie, foreign feeling that a German whose probably never heard of the KKK or knows the history behind them and the South in general (think Carcosa from True Detective) would get. I imagine that the lynchings, the ceremonies and burning crosses glowing in the night would spook the Germans
>be innaswamp >middle of the day but swamp is so thick it seems like its almost sundown >see random Germans hanging from trees, some scalped, some mutilated horribly >burning crosses with scarecrow type dummies dressed in Klansmen robes and SS Uniforms >have the feeling of being constantly watched >have the feeling that you're not gonna make it out of this swamp
>the south is the third reich's vietnam I can't express how much I love this.
A question: are southern blacks generally going to work with the Germans in the way you described, or or will those that do be in the minority and seen as "collaborators" by most blacks?
The blacks in the South are fucked beyond measure, either work with the SS for temporary safety or side with the Klan and risk getting a knife in the back or form your own group and wait to get inevitably BTFO by the SS or KKK. I was thinking of detailing how the Caribbean islands are getting an influx of black refugees running away from the war.
In other places however, they'll be joining the fight but since this is before most American Blacks migrated out of the South, they'll be far in and in between.
I'm being really autistic about being as historically accurate to how things would pan out if this would really happen. So far the Southern plot is my favorite, the Texan and Northern New England plot is gonna be a lot of fun to write out.
>Texan plot tell me more
That's awesome
>mfw some Anon is writing all this down
Oh well, the Federal Government pretty much has to flee inland, the rumor among the guerrillas is that the remnants of the government and military are building up their strength in Los Alamos and supposedly working on a super weapon that can turn the tide for them.
While the SS trips over themselves trying to occupy the South, the actual Elite SS units as well as veteran Wehrmacht units gear up for an offensive across Texas to take out the remaining US Army units and Government in Los Alamos.
Whats left of the Texas National Guard as well as militiamen made up of Texans, Natives and Tejanos come together to hold off an enemy that terribly outguns and outnumbers them, I was thinking of them getting BTFO and having to do a fighting retreat only to get saved by US planes fresh out of the factories and a literal Army of Native Americans who banded together across the Plains and Rockies to help hold of the German Offensive while the "Super Weapon" is getting transported to its final destination
Pretty much, the Texan Front is the most important front in the entire story
>Whats left of the Texas National Guard as well as militiamen made up of Texans, Natives and Tejanos come together to hold off an enemy that terribly outguns and outnumbers the mfw
>I was thinking of them getting BTFO might make for a better story, but as a Texan I'm obligated to say pls no
They will be initially unfortunately, they'll eventually figure out a way to ensure that every confrontation or battle they have with the Germans will be very close quarters so their air support and artillery will become useless as well as stall for as long as they can for the rain season to come in and get mud all over the places so their armor can get bogged down.
I was also thinking of some legend building, you heard of furor teutonicus? Well the Germans will get a taste of their own medicine in Texas.
>There will be now
Noice, here's an idea on how to deus ex machina it so the plot seems fairly plausible.
>US stays neutral in WW2 until Germany strikes first around 1944 as is the case in the book >Anne Frank's family immigrated to the United States from the German-occupied Netherlands around 1942 (in reality her father was able to secure a work visa to the US in late 1941, but it was cancelled before he could make travel arrangements after the U.S. declared war on Germany and cut all diplomatic ties) >The family moves to Atlanta, Georgia (home to a large Jewish community and a hotbed for KKK activities in the 1920s and 30s), assuming they were safe >Anne, being both young and naive, befriends the son of the Georgia Klan's Grand Dragon who attends the same school as her. The two develop intense crushes on one another but are kept at a distance by their fathers. >German nukes Washington DC and invades the U.S. >Atlanta is attacked by German forces >Jews are rounded up, Anne herself however, is hidden away by her friend (in an attic of all places), but her family are taken away to an unknown >His father finds out and is furious, but does not act on it, as he is secretly preparing the Georgia Klan to begin its second guerrilla war in 80 years >The Grand Dragon, willing to put aside his own anti-Semitic feelings out of affection for his son and a sense of practicality (the "we need all the help we can get" mentality), offers Anne the chance to leave and chance it on her own, or join him and his guerrilla fighters >Anne opts for the latter >as a Jew, she is initially treated with hostility by the Klan, but is protected from physical abuse by the Grand Dragon and his son >she's forced to take part in dangerous tasks quite frequently, laying booby traps, passing messages, being used as bait etc. >Anne witnesses the Klan's shocking brutality against both the Germans and suspected collaborators firsthand
>mfw write out an meticulously researched and planned out novel just to have an Anne Frank subplot
Totally worth it
>in her diary (the only thing she managed to take from her home before her family was taken away) Anne expresses that she finds many of the Klan's beliefs and actions utterly repulsive, but also acknowledges that they're the only people willing to stand up to the Nazis and protect her >Anne eventually pursues an open romantic relationship with the Grand Dragon's son, their previous inhibitions having been ebbed away by the strain of living in perpetual fear >Anne becomes pregnant and gives birth while in hiding, with the child being taken into the care of a sympathetic white Baptist family >being the mother of his grandchild, the Grand Dragon eventually starts to treat Anne as a surrogate daughter and opens up that he is not nearly as prejudiced as he lets on and maintains the facade to keep the other Klan leaders from accusing him of being a traitor >the Klan start to turn their attention to attacking German transports carrying forced laborers. In doing so they uncover the grisly fate that has befallen many Jews, the indiscriminate nature of which shocks even them, leading many to begin to quietly question their own racist beliefs
This, also you have to tip toe around any discussion of WW2 topics generally, which is why the only alt-history I tend to enjoy is medieval stuff.
Mostly because: >people writing the medieval timelines tend to be educated in their subject >lack of any bullshit ideology fighting normally >since most countries are monarchies, it makes it easier to go over what is going on by simply switching to the different monarch's point of views.
Basically, think Viktor Goldstein's character arc in the second and third episodes of Generation War when he's fighting with the Polish Home Army, who while seeing him as an outsider and treating him with suspicion ultimately put aside their anti-Semitism out of practically and eventually genuine respect.
It really is annoying >BUT ITS THE BRITISH EMPIRE, THIS COUNTRY COULDN'T HAVE SIMPLY DOESTROYED IT DURING X
>BUT THIS MONARCH WOULD NEVER DO Y, I DON'T CARE IF YOU MADE HIM HAVE A MENTAL ISSUE, THE EMPIRE WOULD HANDLE HIM
>WHAT? ABSOLUTELY ASB, ANGLOS ALWAYS WIN, UNLESS IT IS DECOLONIZATION IN WHICH CASE YOU NEED TO MAKE IT CLEAR YOUR TIMELINE IS A DYSTOPIA FOR REFUSING TO LET THE EMPIRE DECOLONIZE.
>IRELAND? AT BEST IT WOULD BE A PORTUGAL, JUST IGNORE THAT PORTUGAL DID PLENTY OF INTERESTING STUFF, DON'T EVEN BOTHER WRITING AN IRELAND TIMELINE
It's all so tiresome.
It's the only place outside of sufficient velocity, and maybe Spacebattles.
Yep
I really like this idea, and I REALLY like how you didn't fall for this >KKK would love the Nazis! meme
This rings pretty true.
>KKK would love the Nazis! meme
2bh I almost did but I did some research and came to the conclusion that the SS fighting the KKK would be infinitely more interesting, I won't really flesh out any characters in the KKK since the Southern plot will be told through an SS Officer, they're going to be like ghosts, an elusive force waiting to strike when you least expect it. I almost don't want the SS to ever catch one or show the faces of the meme prowling in the swamps and countryside to keep the mystique up until a climactic moment when they realize that they're getting their shit pushed in by a bunch of snaggletoothed, tobacco chewing rednecks. The only thing that could make this all plausible is the fact that the SS unit sent to deal with the KKK are the literal mouthbreathers of the Nazi Party, met all the physical requirements but couldn't be trusted enough to be put on an important mission like the Texan Offensive.
A bunch of Beautiful Idiots and the SS Officer has to keep them all in check while dealing with an insurgency
Nice. Any plans for the Irish-Americans?
Dude, this looks like it is set to be a thing of beauty, good luck anon Northern New England is gonna be all Old Yankees and Irish Americans fighting Stalingrad Veterans in the coldest winter the region has ever experienced.
One last bit
>the Grand Dragon reveals his crisis of conscience to Anne after he gets ahold of her diary and reading through it. He tells her that she is talented much like Margaret Mitchell (author of Gone With the Wind) and that she should seek a career in writing if this war ever ends. He also confronts her with her own prejudice, she had assumed that he was a mindless ideologue and not a human being with his own doubts and fears.
Its been sort of a dream of mine, right now I'm just drawing up the plots and fleshing out the setting, I'm looking to take a class in creative writing since I have to take an elective anyways so I can learn the technical side of writing a novel. I'm training to be a tradesman but writing a novel has been a dream of mine since I was a little kid and I was surprised that no one has ever thought up of what pretty much is /k/'s wet dream
>Old Yankees and Irish American's throwing banter back and forth while holding the line in a mythical-tier battle for the literal fate of America
FUND IT
>Alt-his
>mattering any less than real his
Since you're writing the Southern plot from the point of view of an SS officer, you could integrate in the form of a series of letters Anne Frank penned for her infant son (much in the way Sarah Connor in Terminator makes audio tapes for her son, John) so he would remember her in case she was killed. The letters are seized from a courier who the Germans captured.
What I was thinking for the Northern New English front was that the governments of England and France are hiding out in Canada, its not talked about directly but the Germans are also trying to breakthrough in Canada. Since they bogged like in, one way to finish Canada and gain some ground in the US is to stage an amphibious landing in Maine and shooting straight across since most of that area was sparsely populated. Obviously the Old Yankees and the Irish-Ams prove a little more ornery than anticipated, there's gonna be a lot of maritime raids, Ayuh Faggots and snow.
Here's a retarded axis victory map i made some years ago.
Basically, Germany goes for a Brest-Litovsk treaty with the Russians, and Japan doesn't bomb the USA. The Allied peace treaty leads to the autonomy and independence of most of their colonies, yet many of these independent states are still pro-Allies. France still holds on to their land in West Africa, however Algeria is under revolt and is also being contested by the pro-Axis regime. The Soviet Union is having trouble keeping all of it's "minorities" together after the defeat, and there is a full blown Russian Republican revolt in the east, funded by Japan. Communism is now largely in Latin America and a few of the independent African states.
It doesn't make too much sense but I was pretty bored.
Continuing because I'm on my phone and constantly hit the post button too early
The SS officer reads the letters (let's say 5-6 of them) and he doesn't read them in order so it prevents the reader from immediately figuring out that the author is the one and only Anne Frank. That way, it comes as a surprise to the audience and leaves Anne's fate unresolved (since the letters are not taken from her directly, but from a courier, it's impossible to know whether or not Anne is still alive or dead by the time the officer reads them). Perhaps towards the end, he comes across a photograph of her from 1942 taped to the back of one of the letters and remarks that she must have blossomed into a beautiful young woman by now.
Not bad, however my knowledge on how the Germans named their units is pretty sub-par, how would they name an SS unit? IS it just numerical? Is it based on the region they're deployed? I've had writers block on just what to name the shitty SS unit
Have the Texans do their last stand in San Antonino and the Germans are on the verge of capturing the Alamo in the heart of the city before being driven back by US airstrikes.
It depended on the branch of the SS.
The 36 full-sized Waffen SS Divisions all had number designations as well as official names (Hohenstaufen, Dirlewanger, Das Reich etc.) often worn on cuffs around the lower left arm. Einsatzgruppen units were generally given alphabetical designations (Einsatzgruppen A, B, C etc.). SS police units were named after the region they were stationed in. Allgemeine-SS units were named after either region or given a number designation (ex. 118th SS-Standarte). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_and_commands_of_the_Schutzstaffel
>greatest leader >loses the only war he ever fights
It'll be something along the lines of that, on top of the German War machine barreling through Texas, the Rangers will have to deal with Mexicans invading from the southern border, having struck a deal with Germany to help. In return, they'll get the Southwestern states and Texas back.
Was it the Waffen SS that dealt with the Partisans in the Ukraine and Belarus? The SS Officer is going to be a competent officer who got fucked over by Party politics and now has to command the retards of the SS in the South. In this timeline, he helped maintain good relations with the Ukrainians, helping out in the ultimate victory in the Eastern Front.
He'll attempt to do the same in the South, only to have his efforts dashed by his merry band of trigger happy retards
Waffen-SS, although the most unsavory duties were often detailed to second-rate or foreign units (Waffen Grenadiers). Bosnian Muslim and Cossack SS units almost exclusively fought against partisans.
Keep in mind that while the Waffen-SS have a reputation for being the elite of the German military, their actual quality varied wildly from unit to unit. Some were excellent, others (especially foreign SS) were incompetent to the point of their very existence being detrimental.
Thats the whole idea between the night and day contrast of the SS units in this story, the SS units that are moving in with the Wehrmacht for the Texas Offensive is the best of the best, the literal cream of the crop of the master race. Meanwhile the SS unit tasked to end the KKK insurgency are mostly made up of windowlickers who met the physical requirements and not much else outside of being connected in the party.
They both perform accordingly
Are there any novels where Great Britain never unionises, or where the Reformation never took place?
>check alt-his forum discussion >somebody proposes in mangled english a timeline where Luther dies, House of Habsburg retains dominion over most of its estates, French Revolution as we know it is precluded >asks for peoples' bearings on it >immediately some assrashed normie complains that a world without a liberal revolutionary tradition would be miserable, as if his own personal political inclination was relevant to an alt-his scenario >somebody starts speaking in tongues about butterflies or somesuch and decries starting a scenario from the conclusion(What's wrong with an alt-timeline that is outwardly convincing?)
I think we should have these threads on /his/ more often
That it's not history, it's autistic and, most important, it doesn't belong in this board
In that case, Hitler commits the 1st SS (LSSAH), 2nd SS (Das Reich), 3rd SS (Totenkopf), 9th SS (Hohenstaufen), and 10th SS (Frundsberg) as well as smaller units such as Panzer Brigade 150 (Otto Skorzeny's unit that used captured American equipment during the Battle of the Bulge) committed to the offensive in Texas, with occupation duty in the South left to the Waffen Grenadiers and penal units such as 29th SS (Russians), 14th SS (Ukrainians), 13th and 23rd SS (Bosnian Muslims and Croats), and 36th SS aka Dirlewanger Brigade (convicted criminal and literal escaped insane asylum patients). These units' penchant for unwarranted brutality derails any hopes of placating the White Southern population who begin supporting the Ku Klux Klan en masse.
Perhaps the SS officer protagonist, an avid reader, learns about the Underground Railroad and how whole communities of fugitive slaves once inhabited the Southern wetlands that the Klan now operates freely in. He recommends to his superiors that they should start raising Waffen-SS/Wehmacht detachments of disgruntled African Americans, citing their effectiveness in the American Civil War and Germany's previous recruiting of disgruntled Arab and African colonial troops. Despite his compelling argument, SS leadership repeatedly dismiss him because it violates key tenants of Nazi racial dogma until it becomes apparent that the Klan have the upper hand.
Bonus points if you have the Dirlewanger Brigade face off against a strangely militia calling themselves the Louisiana Tigers
*strangely dressed
anglos stole the future from europe reeeeee
Dude, no, alt-history is just arguing to some preposterous conclusion and then filling in what you think makes sense giving no autonomy or power to any of the actors in your scenario, it's literally like saying what's going to happen 100 years from now because x did y.
>it's literally like saying what's going to happen 100 years from now because x did y. What's wrong with that?
why are you so angry?
working on an alt-history novel, gist of it is pretty much this
>Man in the High Tower ripoff on the surface >diverges after the initial invasion of the US >instead of steamrolling the US and annexing it, Germans are bogged down across the East Coast >meet fierce, brutal and bitter resistance from anything North of New York and South of D.C >Veterans of the Victorious Battle of Stalingrad and Moscow fight Old Yankees in the coldest winter in New English history >SS have to deal with an elusive KKK trying to take advantage of the instability to make the South rise again and savage reprisals in the Deep South and claustrophobic Wetlands >Pentecostal Mountain Men dancing with snakes and talking in tongues before ambushing fallschirmjagers in Appalachia >Texans and Tejanos come together to fight an enemy that severely outguns them while contending with Mexican Nationalists >German Americans face a dilemma in the Pacific Northwest as German troops land from Kamchatka with the help of the Japanese Pretty much its /k/'s wet dream, still trying to figure out how to work the Natives in
The neo Confederates could propose Oklahoma becoming native only state/buffer zone if they side with them, as was pretty much the actual Confederates plan for the territory.
That... is a great idea, I was going to originally just make the KKK side with the SS but that just seemed predictable and uninteresting. I want to push it, even going so far as having some African Americans side with the SS with the promise of security from the marauding Klansmen, the true reason why they would haev to do this is because the Klan and Natives would prove a lot more difficult to put down than they though and with the war becoming more and more unpopular back home as casualties mount
Pretty much, turn the invasion of the US into Germany's Vietnam War
a lot of it is left open to whatever you want it to be really....essentially the POD is sometime after ww2
Probably, though I could see it happening if, say, a Boer rebellion took over SA before the British surrendered. Plus the KKK would NEVER side with the SS, they were white supremacists rather than Aryan Nordicists. The ideological divide would make any kind of alliance incredibly unstable. Think the alliance between the Northern Alliance and the USA.
I did some research on the two and apparently the Germans thought the KKK were the epitome of American savagery. On top of that, most people from the south are WASPs so I would imagine there would be some conflict of interest between them and Aryan Nordicists
Idea for a central MacGuffin:
Gadget, the only bomb which Los Alamos managed to crank out before the invasion. They attempted to transport it by rail to the front, but it got lost en route. Now, several of the forces have heard the rumor and are trying to get it.
Thats a good idea, the original MacGuffin was that the remnants of the US Army were regrouping in the Heartland and other "safe" parts of the country and the subplots revolve around average Americans and Veterans trying to hold out for them for as long as possible (or try to establish their own country before they get their shit together) The Texan front would end up being the most decisive, since they really are the last line of defense before the Wehrmacht can move in on the US Army while they're licking their wounds
What about the Mormons?
Battle of the Alamo Part 2
Rus not russia!!1
Ree
They're in the "safe" zone for the most part, since it seems people are interested, how about some map autism.
Feel free to chip in with any historical or strategic significance a location or city may have
They should immediately secede to become Deseret, arm their borders to the teeth, and have absolutely no laws against their nationals going to work as mercenaries for the Texans, or any other group. Spoiler: none of them work for the Germans.
What few remain and the ww1 trilogy are the best parts of that series and some of the best alternate history I've read. The Interwar and ww2 books felt like a burden to read, I felt that he stuck too close to the ww2 parallels to the point that even having a generic knowledge of ww2 you know everything thats gonna happen.
I was thinking of the US falling into a loose confederation while the Federal Government scrambles to get its shit together, the story will take place after just a couple of months of the initial invasion and subsequent Blitz before it gets bogged down. Utah could become Deseret, Texas would be its own thing, California/Arizona/New Mexico/Nevada are still under the original Federal Government, the Great Lake States come together and the majority of the Plains and Midwest becomes the Heartland.
The PNW will be a new front that has the local population fighting each other over who to side with and Northern New England is going to turn into a frozen, soul crushing hellhole
Southern Idaho and most of Nevada should be annexed by Deseret, as well as any other borderlands that have many Mormons, causing problems between Deseret and its neighbors. Also, you should treat Canada as part of the US, since it would, obviously, also get invaded. It would likely have the UK government in exile.
>Also, you should treat Canada as part of the US, since it would, obviously, also get invaded. It would likely have the UK government in exile.
Thats a great idea, could also add to Northern New England becoming a quagmire, the Old Yankees, who as far as the Germans are concerned are cut off from everyone, are getting supplies and weapons from the French Canadians and Exiled UK/English Canada.
When the Germans realize this, they'll try to move in as fast as possible to stop this only to be defeated in a decisive battle that forces them to pull out of Maine and New Hampshire, leaving Old Yankees free to prepare for an offensive against Occupied Southern New England.
At the same time this is happening, resistance movements in Europe could start flaring up
>WASPs What is that?
White Anglo Saxon Protestants
Some people say W is wealthy.
alt history fucking sucks
Empty America is great
Turtledove's book series featuring modern day Roman-Byzantine and Sassanid Persian Empires surviving and quelling the rise of Islam were pretty cool.
Empty America please explain
It is Wealthy. You literally can't be called a WASP if you're poor.
le reddit face
What an eccentric performance.
And you can't be a non-white Anglo-Saxon.
Most alt history is pure garbage, even things that are considered "good" like Stirling and Turtledove are exercises in pure brainletry.
Yep, that's a good point too. The very term WASP was created to denote people like the Boston Brahmins, extremely wealthy, old money Anglos from the northeast, and it was a term created by their critics who considered them to be too powerful. Some Billy Bob living in his trailer in Alabama sure as all fuck isn't a WASP.
You could imagine : 1) France and Netherlands attack Belgium, Uk counterattacks, Ireland rises, the Uk have no choice but making peace. 2) In the mean time, AH attacks Serbia because reasons (I mean, they hated each other, so any casus belli would fit), so Russia attacks AH, so Germany attacks Russia, pretty much ww1 except France don't attack Germany because they are invading Belgium. So Germany wins and the Russian Tsardom collapses. One big flaw : why would France attack Belgium ?
Harry turtledoves "How few remain" the South wins the civil war but from the outcome the U.S. becomes a greater superpower. So far the series is great.
Man I havent heard pleb since middleschool
Someone who wants Wallonia for France, and agrees to let the Netherlands have Flanders.
Look at the spread of German Americans, there are far less in the Northwest than say Cincinnati or Pittsburgh, especially then. Maybe the "5th column" is real? I'm from Cincinnati, and many of my family spoke German at the time, patriotism overcome by expediance? It may seem typical, but throwing some in will ground it a bit.
Following this up, it might be interesting if the PNW insurgency was the ethnic coblepot it became irl. There are strong anti-japanese sentiments, but less so German. As Japanese involvement expands, new insurgents strain the unity of the forces. The Germans can't focus here, and continue to funnel experienced allied troops into Washington. What happened to China btw? Perhaps veterans of Nanjing, brought to the us as a break for brutal warfare in Asia act out as they did in China, driving the local Japanese and German commanders apart. Glorious Baltic Empire circa mid-Migration period/early mid-Vendel. Post collapse Roman empire filling a vacuum of petty kings in Europe pre-Christianization.
Isn't it beautiful?
It would've been Harry Turtledove's Southern Victory but it takes the WW2 parallels way too far.
If anything, Turtledove should've paralleled the Troubles in Northern Ireland or the Indo-Pakistani conflict, where the CSA and USA are both plagued with low-level violence in the border states (i.e. Kentuckians who want back into the Union and Ohioians who want to join the Confederacy). Maybe ended it with the two nations starting to mend relations because of their allying together in the World Wars.
Also, Southern Victory's narrative pretty much completely falls apart post-WW1. It makes no sense how Germany, the CSA, USA, and UK could develop atomic bombs independent of each other at the same time. Or how the Freedom Party could think killing off 40% of their country's population was practical, let alone a good idea (that's about as nonsensical as Mexico trying to exterminate its entire Amerindian population). The only reason Germany got away with it was the fact Jews were a tiny minority in every occupied territory except Poland.
Worse yet, Turtledove ditched the budding Mormon conflict which was actually interesting for "Confederate Hitler gasses the niggers". And if he absolutely had to go with a Holocaust parallel, the Mormons would have made the best placeholder for the Jews. Think about it, the Mormons are a small well-educated religious sect that are hated with extreme vitriol by Americans and treated with neglect by Confederates. It would've made the perfect cocktail for a genocide.
If I were to do a rewrite Southern Victory post-WW1, here's how I'd do it
Gordon McSweeney actually survives the war and becomes the Hitler-like figure combined with a corrupted form of Puritanical Christianity that he was supposed to be. His rule represents the Puritans' legacy from oppressed to oppressors coming full circle (hence why he is a descendant of Mayflower settlers) and as well as the final corruption of United States that began with its loss in the Civil War in the form of discarding the centuries-old Institution of Separation of Church and State and embarking on a campaign of religious-motivated mass murder.
Mormons are expelled from Utah after their uprisings in WW1 and dispersed across to urban centers across the continent. After seizing power in the 1930s McSweeney singles them as being responsible for everything wrong with the country. Mormons in chains, ghettoized, stripped of their rights. The Confederacy, while not as overtly anti-Mormon being largely indifferent to their plight (i.e. turning back Mormon refugees at St. Louis, Missouri in parallel to the SS St. Louis incident).
The Second World War starts, and the persecution of Mormons rapidly escalates into a campaign of extermination. Entire neighborhoods of Mormons are forced onto trains bound for death camps built deep in the American interior (if Turtledove really wanted to draw a disturbing parallel, making the sites of Japanese interment camps like Terminal Island and Topaz into TL-191's equivalent of Westerbork and Auschwitz would've been a good one). The Confederacy finally gaining the upper hand (perhaps Featherston could've served as a Stalin/Tito-like figure who keeps the CSA's racial strife "under control" through brute force) and advancing into the American West, only to discover the horrors of the "solution" to the Mormon problem in the form of the camps. Maybe Generals Eisenhower and Patton looking on at piles of emaciated bodies (as they did at Ohrdruf), their revulsion and anger, and coming to the realization that their country had utterly failed to heed warnings that something terrible was happening and now millions were dead because of it.
The United States become such a hated and despised nation that the Confederates are compelled to change their own national flag (the Stars and Bars is still the official Confederate flag in the book IIRC) to avoid the stigma of its resemblance to the US flag. Thereby forever severing its ties to the old United States.
The fight for national survival against the United States in the Second Great War and the horrifying revelations of the Mormon Holocaust finally break the Confederacy free of the spell of Jim Crow and slavery and force it to adopt radical social reform from within, much as WW2 did for the United States as a whole. Perhaps a young Baptist minister from Atlanta named Martin takes the lead in advocating this change.
And since this board just loves to talk about a certain Jewish girl from the Netherlands and I think Turtledove wasted a perfectly good opportunity to parallel the actual Holocaust by featuring a prominent victim's reaction to the same thing occurring in another part of the world...
Anne Frank, who's just living in the Netherlands, enjoying a fairly /comfy/ life, becomes pen pals with a Mormon girl who mysteriously disappears after the war begins. Anne is deeply distraught by this and in the late 1940s journeys to the former United States (now under Confederate occupation) to try and discover her friend's fate. Over the course of her travels, Anne discovers her friend had gone into hiding, was betrayed, captured, and murdered along with her entire family by the US Government in a concentration camp. And that Jews, Confederate and American alike had either been indifferent to the persecution of Mormons or actively participated in it.
So moved she is, by her friend's plight and so enraged at the callous indifference of her fellow Jews displayed in the face of it (maybe a verbal altercation with Saul Goldman could highlight), that Anne converts to Mormonism, marries Helmuth Hübener (a Mormon who was executed for opposing the Nazis OTL) and not only names her own children after the dead girl and her family, but arranges to have their correspondence published and becomes wildly popular in the post-war Confederate States as a result. Capitalizing on her newfound fame, Anne demands that the Confederate States bring justice to those responsible for "Mormocaust". In a parallel to the Nuremberg Trials, Henry Ford is executed for using Mormon slave labor in his factories, as is Father Coughlin for using his radio program to incite anti-Mormon pogroms. Thereby elevating Anne Frank to great fame she had in our timeline, but with the tragic twist. She serves what was her father's role, caretaker for the dead.
In the final scene, Anne does a book tour in the CSA, meeting with the soldiers of the Confederate unit that liberated the camp her friend died in. So moved are they by Anne's telling how her friend suffered and died that these battle-hardened veterans are reduced to tears and elect to gift her with one of their old battle flags as a keepsake. Anne accepts it and has it placed at the front door of a museum dedicated to the victims.
Yeah, but why would the French Republic attacks a country it supported like 50 years ago.
Just wrote this in the Huey Long thread:
And I asked you where you stole it. World is a small place.
Who knows?
>SS have to deal with an elusive KKK trying to take advantage of the instability to make the South rise again and savage reprisals in the Deep South and claustrophobic Wetlands
"I'd sooner see you marry a nigger than a Kraut." -Great-grandfather who was in the Klan in the 20s and lost one of his closest friends in WW2
Sage advice desu
I've been reading through "A Shift in Priorities".
It starts in the middle of WW1 and is pretty pro-Germany and at least as far as I've gotten pretty anti-American, but it's still pretty fun and interesting. There's a lot of attention to detail (he goes through painstaking efforts to make all events at least seem believable in context even if ultimately they aren't plausible), and it goes slow enough that the author has a chance to see what a lot of irl historical figures are up to in the alternate timeline.
It was started years ago but last I checked it was still being updated.
China gets broken, with no US around to meddle with their plans they steamroll across the Pacific. Meanwhile in Europe, Germany puts down any resistance movements that pop up, instead of fucking with the Ukrainians they establish a strong alliance and BTFO the Russians.
The Japanese funnel their Veterans who fought in the Northern parts of China to the PNW campaign, Germany splits their Eastern Front veterans to Northern New England and for the Texas Offensive, the same goes for their legitimately Elite Waffen SS units while the shitty ones are stuck dealing with the KKK in Dixie and Mountain men in Appalachia. I was thinking of having the Dixie story through the eyes of a German SS officer who fell from grace and got stuck in one of the shitty, undisciplined SS units in the South
Kind of the sentiment I was shooting for, their hate for the Germans will only fester when the SS starts to enlist local African Americans to act as scouts, spies and even Anti-Partisans once things start to get very ugly and the strain on manpower and supplies gets stronger.
In the eyes of the KKK they'll go from being murdering invaders stopping them from bringing about the CSA to nigger loving, murdering invaders stopping them from bringing about the CSA, the ultimate enemy as far as they're concerned
How's your progress on it? Any other plot points of note? Will American Jews suffer the same fate as their European cousins? Will the Germans still go ahead with Generalplan Ost even as they become bogged down in a brutal guerrilla war in America? Will we see Anne Frank being seemingly chased by the Gestapo through the Louisiana swamps, only for the SS troopers to be ambushed, captured, and savagely lynched by Klansmen who used her as bait to draw them into a trap?
If the South Had Won the Civil War by MacKinlay Kantor was better desu. I appreciated that there's a reconciliation between North and South that culminates in the former enemies fighting side by side against the tyranny of Nazism.
Given that France and Britain had a deadly rivalry that lasted almost a millennia, but forged a lasting friendship in the World Wars, I think the idea of the Confederate and United States having a similar detente in the face of an enemy that threatens to destroy them both is under-appreciated genre of alternate history literature.
>How's your progress on it?
I'm in the pre-writing right now, I'm but a lowly amateur writer/Mechanic student whose still figuring it all out in all honesty but I've always wanted to write a novel.
>Will American Jews suffer the same fate as their European cousins?
Pretty much, the only real resistance that they put together as a people is in New York City but its mired with infighting and betrayals i.e the ones who are Communist getting set up by the ones who want to "Keep it American", old grudges still standing between families and the Gestapo cracking down hard on the City
>Will the Germans still go ahead with Generalplan Ost
In this timeline they totally dominate in the European Front, pretty much everything that can go right goes right for the Germans
>Will we see Anne Frank being seemingly chased by the Gestapo through the Louisiana swamps, only for the SS troopers to be ambushed, captured, and savagely lynched by Klansmen who used her as bait to draw them into a trap?
There will be now, what I was wanting to go for with the KKK is for the reader to get this eerie, foreign feeling that a German whose probably never heard of the KKK or knows the history behind them and the South in general (think Carcosa from True Detective) would get. I imagine that the lynchings, the ceremonies and burning crosses glowing in the night would spook the Germans
>be innaswamp >middle of the day but swamp is so thick it seems like its almost sundown >see random Germans hanging from trees, some scalped, some mutilated horribly >burning crosses with scarecrow type dummies dressed in Klansmen robes and SS Uniforms >have the feeling of being constantly watched >have the feeling that you're not gonna make it out of this swamp
>the south is the third reich's vietnam I can't express how much I love this.
A question: are southern blacks generally going to work with the Germans in the way you described, or or will those that do be in the minority and seen as "collaborators" by most blacks?
The blacks in the South are fucked beyond measure, either work with the SS for temporary safety or side with the Klan and risk getting a knife in the back or form your own group and wait to get inevitably BTFO by the SS or KKK. I was thinking of detailing how the Caribbean islands are getting an influx of black refugees running away from the war.
In other places however, they'll be joining the fight but since this is before most American Blacks migrated out of the South, they'll be far in and in between.
I'm being really autistic about being as historically accurate to how things would pan out if this would really happen. So far the Southern plot is my favorite, the Texan and Northern New England plot is gonna be a lot of fun to write out.
>Texan plot tell me more
That's awesome
>mfw some Anon is writing all this down
Oh well, the Federal Government pretty much has to flee inland, the rumor among the guerrillas is that the remnants of the government and military are building up their strength in Los Alamos and supposedly working on a super weapon that can turn the tide for them.
While the SS trips over themselves trying to occupy the South, the actual Elite SS units as well as veteran Wehrmacht units gear up for an offensive across Texas to take out the remaining US Army units and Government in Los Alamos.
Whats left of the Texas National Guard as well as militiamen made up of Texans, Natives and Tejanos come together to hold off an enemy that terribly outguns and outnumbers them, I was thinking of them getting BTFO and having to do a fighting retreat only to get saved by US planes fresh out of the factories and a literal Army of Native Americans who banded together across the Plains and Rockies to help hold of the German Offensive while the "Super Weapon" is getting transported to its final destination
Pretty much, the Texan Front is the most important front in the entire story
>Whats left of the Texas National Guard as well as militiamen made up of Texans, Natives and Tejanos come together to hold off an enemy that terribly outguns and outnumbers the mfw
>I was thinking of them getting BTFO might make for a better story, but as a Texan I'm obligated to say pls no
They will be initially unfortunately, they'll eventually figure out a way to ensure that every confrontation or battle they have with the Germans will be very close quarters so their air support and artillery will become useless as well as stall for as long as they can for the rain season to come in and get mud all over the places so their armor can get bogged down.
I was also thinking of some legend building, you heard of furor teutonicus? Well the Germans will get a taste of their own medicine in Texas.
>There will be now
Noice, here's an idea on how to deus ex machina it so the plot seems fairly plausible.
>US stays neutral in WW2 until Germany strikes first around 1944 as is the case in the book >Anne Frank's family immigrated to the United States from the German-occupied Netherlands around 1942 (in reality her father was able to secure a work visa to the US in late 1941, but it was cancelled before he could make travel arrangements after the U.S. declared war on Germany and cut all diplomatic ties) >The family moves to Atlanta, Georgia (home to a large Jewish community and a hotbed for KKK activities in the 1920s and 30s), assuming they were safe >Anne, being both young and naive, befriends the son of the Georgia Klan's Grand Dragon who attends the same school as her. The two develop intense crushes on one another but are kept at a distance by their fathers. >German nukes Washington DC and invades the U.S. >Atlanta is attacked by German forces >Jews are rounded up, Anne herself however, is hidden away by her friend (in an attic of all places), but her family are taken away to an unknown >His father finds out and is furious, but does not act on it, as he is secretly preparing the Georgia Klan to begin its second guerrilla war in 80 years >The Grand Dragon, willing to put aside his own anti-Semitic feelings out of affection for his son and a sense of practicality (the "we need all the help we can get" mentality), offers Anne the chance to leave and chance it on her own, or join him and his guerrilla fighters >Anne opts for the latter >as a Jew, she is initially treated with hostility by the Klan, but is protected from physical abuse by the Grand Dragon and his son >she's forced to take part in dangerous tasks quite frequently, laying booby traps, passing messages, being used as bait etc. >Anne witnesses the Klan's shocking brutality against both the Germans and suspected collaborators firsthand
>mfw write out an meticulously researched and planned out novel just to have an Anne Frank subplot
Totally worth it
>in her diary (the only thing she managed to take from her home before her family was taken away) Anne expresses that she finds many of the Klan's beliefs and actions utterly repulsive, but also acknowledges that they're the only people willing to stand up to the Nazis and protect her >Anne eventually pursues an open romantic relationship with the Grand Dragon's son, their previous inhibitions having been ebbed away by the strain of living in perpetual fear >Anne becomes pregnant and gives birth while in hiding, with the child being taken into the care of a sympathetic white Baptist family >being the mother of his grandchild, the Grand Dragon eventually starts to treat Anne as a surrogate daughter and opens up that he is not nearly as prejudiced as he lets on and maintains the facade to keep the other Klan leaders from accusing him of being a traitor >the Klan start to turn their attention to attacking German transports carrying forced laborers. In doing so they uncover the grisly fate that has befallen many Jews, the indiscriminate nature of which shocks even them, leading many to begin to quietly question their own racist beliefs
This, also you have to tip toe around any discussion of WW2 topics generally, which is why the only alt-history I tend to enjoy is medieval stuff.
Mostly because: >people writing the medieval timelines tend to be educated in their subject >lack of any bullshit ideology fighting normally >since most countries are monarchies, it makes it easier to go over what is going on by simply switching to the different monarch's point of views.
Basically, think Viktor Goldstein's character arc in the second and third episodes of Generation War when he's fighting with the Polish Home Army, who while seeing him as an outsider and treating him with suspicion ultimately put aside their anti-Semitism out of practically and eventually genuine respect.
It really is annoying >BUT ITS THE BRITISH EMPIRE, THIS COUNTRY COULDN'T HAVE SIMPLY DOESTROYED IT DURING X
>BUT THIS MONARCH WOULD NEVER DO Y, I DON'T CARE IF YOU MADE HIM HAVE A MENTAL ISSUE, THE EMPIRE WOULD HANDLE HIM
>WHAT? ABSOLUTELY ASB, ANGLOS ALWAYS WIN, UNLESS IT IS DECOLONIZATION IN WHICH CASE YOU NEED TO MAKE IT CLEAR YOUR TIMELINE IS A DYSTOPIA FOR REFUSING TO LET THE EMPIRE DECOLONIZE.
>IRELAND? AT BEST IT WOULD BE A PORTUGAL, JUST IGNORE THAT PORTUGAL DID PLENTY OF INTERESTING STUFF, DON'T EVEN BOTHER WRITING AN IRELAND TIMELINE
It's all so tiresome.
It's the only place outside of sufficient velocity, and maybe Spacebattles.
Yep
I really like this idea, and I REALLY like how you didn't fall for this >KKK would love the Nazis! meme
This rings pretty true.
>KKK would love the Nazis! meme
2bh I almost did but I did some research and came to the conclusion that the SS fighting the KKK would be infinitely more interesting, I won't really flesh out any characters in the KKK since the Southern plot will be told through an SS Officer, they're going to be like ghosts, an elusive force waiting to strike when you least expect it. I almost don't want the SS to ever catch one or show the faces of the meme prowling in the swamps and countryside to keep the mystique up until a climactic moment when they realize that they're getting their shit pushed in by a bunch of snaggletoothed, tobacco chewing rednecks. The only thing that could make this all plausible is the fact that the SS unit sent to deal with the KKK are the literal mouthbreathers of the Nazi Party, met all the physical requirements but couldn't be trusted enough to be put on an important mission like the Texan Offensive.
A bunch of Beautiful Idiots and the SS Officer has to keep them all in check while dealing with an insurgency
Nice. Any plans for the Irish-Americans?
Dude, this looks like it is set to be a thing of beauty, good luck anon Northern New England is gonna be all Old Yankees and Irish Americans fighting Stalingrad Veterans in the coldest winter the region has ever experienced.
One last bit
>the Grand Dragon reveals his crisis of conscience to Anne after he gets ahold of her diary and reading through it. He tells her that she is talented much like Margaret Mitchell (author of Gone With the Wind) and that she should seek a career in writing if this war ever ends. He also confronts her with her own prejudice, she had assumed that he was a mindless ideologue and not a human being with his own doubts and fears.
Its been sort of a dream of mine, right now I'm just drawing up the plots and fleshing out the setting, I'm looking to take a class in creative writing since I have to take an elective anyways so I can learn the technical side of writing a novel. I'm training to be a tradesman but writing a novel has been a dream of mine since I was a little kid and I was surprised that no one has ever thought up of what pretty much is /k/'s wet dream
>Old Yankees and Irish American's throwing banter back and forth while holding the line in a mythical-tier battle for the literal fate of America
FUND IT
>Alt-his
>mattering any less than real his
Since you're writing the Southern plot from the point of view of an SS officer, you could integrate in the form of a series of letters Anne Frank penned for her infant son (much in the way Sarah Connor in Terminator makes audio tapes for her son, John) so he would remember her in case she was killed. The letters are seized from a courier who the Germans captured.
What I was thinking for the Northern New English front was that the governments of England and France are hiding out in Canada, its not talked about directly but the Germans are also trying to breakthrough in Canada. Since they bogged like in, one way to finish Canada and gain some ground in the US is to stage an amphibious landing in Maine and shooting straight across since most of that area was sparsely populated. Obviously the Old Yankees and the Irish-Ams prove a little more ornery than anticipated, there's gonna be a lot of maritime raids, Ayuh Faggots and snow.
Here's a retarded axis victory map i made some years ago.
Basically, Germany goes for a Brest-Litovsk treaty with the Russians, and Japan doesn't bomb the USA. The Allied peace treaty leads to the autonomy and independence of most of their colonies, yet many of these independent states are still pro-Allies. France still holds on to their land in West Africa, however Algeria is under revolt and is also being contested by the pro-Axis regime. The Soviet Union is having trouble keeping all of it's "minorities" together after the defeat, and there is a full blown Russian Republican revolt in the east, funded by Japan. Communism is now largely in Latin America and a few of the independent African states.
It doesn't make too much sense but I was pretty bored.
Continuing because I'm on my phone and constantly hit the post button too early
The SS officer reads the letters (let's say 5-6 of them) and he doesn't read them in order so it prevents the reader from immediately figuring out that the author is the one and only Anne Frank. That way, it comes as a surprise to the audience and leaves Anne's fate unresolved (since the letters are not taken from her directly, but from a courier, it's impossible to know whether or not Anne is still alive or dead by the time the officer reads them). Perhaps towards the end, he comes across a photograph of her from 1942 taped to the back of one of the letters and remarks that she must have blossomed into a beautiful young woman by now.
Not bad, however my knowledge on how the Germans named their units is pretty sub-par, how would they name an SS unit? IS it just numerical? Is it based on the region they're deployed? I've had writers block on just what to name the shitty SS unit
Have the Texans do their last stand in San Antonino and the Germans are on the verge of capturing the Alamo in the heart of the city before being driven back by US airstrikes.
It depended on the branch of the SS.
The 36 full-sized Waffen SS Divisions all had number designations as well as official names (Hohenstaufen, Dirlewanger, Das Reich etc.) often worn on cuffs around the lower left arm. Einsatzgruppen units were generally given alphabetical designations (Einsatzgruppen A, B, C etc.). SS police units were named after the region they were stationed in. Allgemeine-SS units were named after either region or given a number designation (ex. 118th SS-Standarte). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Units_and_commands_of_the_Schutzstaffel
>greatest leader >loses the only war he ever fights
It'll be something along the lines of that, on top of the German War machine barreling through Texas, the Rangers will have to deal with Mexicans invading from the southern border, having struck a deal with Germany to help. In return, they'll get the Southwestern states and Texas back.
Was it the Waffen SS that dealt with the Partisans in the Ukraine and Belarus? The SS Officer is going to be a competent officer who got fucked over by Party politics and now has to command the retards of the SS in the South. In this timeline, he helped maintain good relations with the Ukrainians, helping out in the ultimate victory in the Eastern Front.
He'll attempt to do the same in the South, only to have his efforts dashed by his merry band of trigger happy retards
Waffen-SS, although the most unsavory duties were often detailed to second-rate or foreign units (Waffen Grenadiers). Bosnian Muslim and Cossack SS units almost exclusively fought against partisans.
Keep in mind that while the Waffen-SS have a reputation for being the elite of the German military, their actual quality varied wildly from unit to unit. Some were excellent, others (especially foreign SS) were incompetent to the point of their very existence being detrimental.
Thats the whole idea between the night and day contrast of the SS units in this story, the SS units that are moving in with the Wehrmacht for the Texas Offensive is the best of the best, the literal cream of the crop of the master race. Meanwhile the SS unit tasked to end the KKK insurgency are mostly made up of windowlickers who met the physical requirements and not much else outside of being connected in the party.
They both perform accordingly
Are there any novels where Great Britain never unionises, or where the Reformation never took place?
>check alt-his forum discussion >somebody proposes in mangled english a timeline where Luther dies, House of Habsburg retains dominion over most of its estates, French Revolution as we know it is precluded >asks for peoples' bearings on it >immediately some assrashed normie complains that a world without a liberal revolutionary tradition would be miserable, as if his own personal political inclination was relevant to an alt-his scenario >somebody starts speaking in tongues about butterflies or somesuch and decries starting a scenario from the conclusion(What's wrong with an alt-timeline that is outwardly convincing?)
I think we should have these threads on /his/ more often
That it's not history, it's autistic and, most important, it doesn't belong in this board
In that case, Hitler commits the 1st SS (LSSAH), 2nd SS (Das Reich), 3rd SS (Totenkopf), 9th SS (Hohenstaufen), and 10th SS (Frundsberg) as well as smaller units such as Panzer Brigade 150 (Otto Skorzeny's unit that used captured American equipment during the Battle of the Bulge) committed to the offensive in Texas, with occupation duty in the South left to the Waffen Grenadiers and penal units such as 29th SS (Russians), 14th SS (Ukrainians), 13th and 23rd SS (Bosnian Muslims and Croats), and 36th SS aka Dirlewanger Brigade (convicted criminal and literal escaped insane asylum patients). These units' penchant for unwarranted brutality derails any hopes of placating the White Southern population who begin supporting the Ku Klux Klan en masse.
Perhaps the SS officer protagonist, an avid reader, learns about the Underground Railroad and how whole communities of fugitive slaves once inhabited the Southern wetlands that the Klan now operates freely in. He recommends to his superiors that they should start raising Waffen-SS/Wehmacht detachments of disgruntled African Americans, citing their effectiveness in the American Civil War and Germany's previous recruiting of disgruntled Arab and African colonial troops. Despite his compelling argument, SS leadership repeatedly dismiss him because it violates key tenants of Nazi racial dogma until it becomes apparent that the Klan have the upper hand.
Bonus points if you have the Dirlewanger Brigade face off against a strangely militia calling themselves the Louisiana Tigers
*strangely dressed
anglos stole the future from europe reeeeee
>the
SS officer protagonist, an avid reader, learns about the Underground
Railroad and how whole communities of fugitive slaves once inhabited
the Southern wetlands that the Klan now operates freely in. He
recommends to his superiors that they should start raising
Waffen-SS/Wehmacht detachments of disgruntled African Americans,
citing their effectiveness in the American Civil War and Germany's
previous recruiting of disgruntled Arab and African colonial troops.
Despite his compelling argument, SS leadership repeatedly dismiss him
because it violates key tenets of Nazi racial dogma until it becomes
apparent that the Klan have the upper hand.
Anon thats a great idea, I was thinking something along the lines of the Dirlewanger Brigade.
Also, on top of the war and having to deal with the insurgency, I really want to concentrate on the destruction of a good man with the SS Officer. I was thinking of ending the Southern Plot with the SS Officer having survived the events of the climax (still not sure what it will be) despite his unit taking massive casualties and the Texan Offensive failing and being relieved. I want to to hint that despite the events that transpired, he had a friend who managed to work his way to a ranking post in the Nazi Party and finds out that he's going to be posted in a comfy station somewhere in the Ukraine but at the point the Officer wonders if his experience in the South will ever stop haunting him.
You could always end it with the Officer suffering a crisis of conscience. He realizes that the Third Reich is not invincible, is not above making the strategic errors that undid its enemies, and that the Untermensch are not unintelligent or bestial in nature. They are a cunning foe, capable of outsmarting even him, and more importantly, still human. The captured letters he reads shows him that the Reich mercilessly persecutes average people who have hopes and dreams, just like his friends and family back home.
He also realizes that by invading the United States and so savagely brutalizing its people, Germany has created its own worst enemy. As was the case with the Soviet Union in our timeline, Americans are hellbent on vengeance and will never stop until they have it.
He did absolutely humiliate the French if that's any points to him. >Poland, a country with no helpful geography, that was blitzed, with almost no warning held out for a month. >France, the country that had been building defenses since ww2, geography to defend, and a grand history of martial competence before Prussia raped them for the first time gets raped again, lasting >one >day >less >than Poland did.
Truth be told, I think the fact they did so damn well Blitzing France is what fucked them latter, they must have felt invincible.
Agreed.
>NO!! My special snowflake ideology that must happen once this arbitrary date is crossed got butterflied from your TL, call your TL a dystopia now before we ban you for supporting Nazism subtlety.
>REEE Anglos are supreme, there is 0% chance they can fuck up ever so how dare you try to write a timeline where they fuck up
Anon thats a great idea, I was thinking something along the lines of the Dirlewanger Brigade.
Also, on top of the war and having to deal with the insurgency, I really want to concentrate on the destruction of a good man with the SS Officer. I was thinking of ending the Southern Plot with the SS Officer having survived the events of the climax (still not sure what it will be) despite his unit taking massive casualties and the Texan Offensive failing and being relieved. I want to to hint that despite the events that transpired, he had a friend who managed to work his way to a ranking post in the Nazi Party and finds out that he's going to be posted in a comfy station somewhere in the Ukraine but at the point the Officer wonders if his experience in the South will ever stop haunting him.
You could always end it with the Officer suffering a crisis of conscience. He realizes that the Third Reich is not invincible, is not above making the strategic errors that undid its enemies, and that the Untermensch are not unintelligent or bestial in nature. They are a cunning foe, capable of outsmarting even him, and more importantly, still human. The captured letters he reads shows him that the Reich mercilessly persecutes average people who have hopes and dreams, just like his friends and family back home.
He also realizes that by invading the United States and so savagely brutalizing its people, Germany has created its own worst enemy. As was the case with the Soviet Union in our timeline, Americans are hellbent on vengeance and will never stop until they have it.
He did absolutely humiliate the French if that's any points to him. >Poland, a country with no helpful geography, that was blitzed, with almost no warning held out for a month. >France, the country that had been building defenses since ww2, geography to defend, and a grand history of martial competence before Prussia raped them for the first time gets raped again, lasting >one >day >less >than Poland did.
Truth be told, I think the fact they did so damn well Blitzing France is what fucked them latter, they must have felt invincible.
Agreed.
>NO!! My special snowflake ideology that must happen once this arbitrary date is crossed got butterflied from your TL, call your TL a dystopia now before we ban you for supporting Nazism subtlety.
>REEE Anglos are supreme, there is 0% chance they can fuck up ever so how dare you try to write a timeline where they fuck up
>tfw
no Balkanized America
The US is too big
>bluecoat scum still occupying my beloved Old Dominion State >Southern US splintered into three country and not re-constituting the CSA
Long could never unite the South, not with Stirling in Texas.
Two questions:
1) Who fucked up and allowed this to happen?
2) How did Amelia Earhart became the warlord of Seattle?
This unironically.
Prove to me that alternate universes exists, or fuck off.
>KKK fighting the Nazis
I'm already loving how this story is shaping up. I always preferred anti-heroes over conventional ones. In most stories (/pol/ notwithstanding), the KKK would be the most wicked of villians, but in this case, they are forced into the position of being the "good guys" by virtue of the other side being so much worse.
How do you plan on the insurgency in the South panning out? Will the Confederacy be reborn? If so, will they join the United States in its eventual retaliation against Germany? Will the KKK get a redemptive arc of sorts (i.e. witnessing the horrors of Nazism causes many formerly fervent Southern racists to reconsider their own beliefs)?
And how will things turn out for supposed Nazi-sympathizers like Charles Lindbergh and Henry Ford?
We'll really get insight on the German side of things through the Officer, despite not being a stranger to war, the Southern Occupation will change him forever.
There are a lot of things going on while the Southern Insurgency goes on, the KKK will originally start out as a bunch of Good Ol' Boys and very VERY old Dixie families wearing robes and masks in the Wetlands and sparsely populated areas but as the SS continue to deteriorate relations between them and the local population (much to our SS Officer protagonists chagrin), they'll start rallying to the KKK while the Old Aristocracy organize a sort of provisional gov't for the Neo-Confederacy. At the end of the day, The Texans and remnants of the US Army turn the tide after stopping a major German Offensive and any hopes of the Confederacy will get dashed, the Old Aristocracy realizing there's no way they'll be economically stable without the rest of the country.
The KKK will still remain the same old White Supremacist group, I wanted to get into some real injustice by pretty much making the public perception that they're heroes and models of American resistance and stubbornness. Meanwhile the US Government will pretty much revoke the citizenship and deny entry to any African Americans that fled to the Caribbean. In a way I want to make a situation that will be looked back as a national shame, give the story even more character.
The only non-whites or minorities who won't get completely fucked over will be the Natives in the Plains and the Hispanics in Texas and it'll only be because the White Texans and Deseret Mercenaries stand up for them
At the end of the day, The Texans and remnants of the US Army turn the tide after stopping a major German Offensive and any hopes of the Confederacy will get dashed, the Old Aristocracy realizing there's no way they'll be economically stable without the rest of the country.
You could write it in as an unresolved issue where the US government rather than fighting them opts to treat them as semi-autonomous, having suffered such appalling losses that they cannot afford to risk a civil war. Leaving it open to interpretation whether a future conflict will occur later on.
>The KKK will still remain the same old White Supremacist group, I wanted to get into some real injustice by pretty much making the public perception that they're heroes and models of American resistance and stubbornness.
Perhaps you could write end it with a poetic justice of sorts where the KKK's numbers plummet following the end of the German occupation, as many members have come to see their own hypocrisy after witnessing the excesses of Nazi racism. Maybe this is exemplified in one scene where the Grand Dragon of Georgia resigns because of the Klan's anti-semitism, declaring that he cannot in good conscious, parrot such beliefs when he has a Jewish grandchild whom he cherishes more than anything in the world (an actual parallel to this would be Thomas Dixon, who romanticized the original Klan in his novels, but denounced the revived one for its anti-Catholic and anti-Jewish bigotry).
Sounds corny, but I like the idea of individual redemption, especially through some type of familial relation.
The one where & Humanities never existed* al dente
Anon, you can't fuck this up, I'll actually be looking forward to this.
The US is too big
>bluecoat scum still occupying my beloved Old Dominion State >Southern US splintered into three country and not re-constituting the CSA
Long could never unite the South, not with Stirling in Texas.
Two questions:
1) Who fucked up and allowed this to happen?
2) How did Amelia Earhart became the warlord of Seattle?
This unironically.
Prove to me that alternate universes exists, or fuck off.
>KKK fighting the Nazis
I'm already loving how this story is shaping up. I always preferred anti-heroes over conventional ones. In most stories (/pol/ notwithstanding), the KKK would be the most wicked of villians, but in this case, they are forced into the position of being the "good guys" by virtue of the other side being so much worse.
How do you plan on the insurgency in the South panning out? Will the Confederacy be reborn? If so, will they join the United States in its eventual retaliation against Germany? Will the KKK get a redemptive arc of sorts (i.e. witnessing the horrors of Nazism causes many formerly fervent Southern racists to reconsider their own beliefs)?
And how will things turn out for supposed Nazi-sympathizers like Charles Lindbergh and Henry Ford?
We'll really get insight on the German side of things through the Officer, despite not being a stranger to war, the Southern Occupation will change him forever.
There are a lot of things going on while the Southern Insurgency goes on, the KKK will originally start out as a bunch of Good Ol' Boys and very VERY old Dixie families wearing robes and masks in the Wetlands and sparsely populated areas but as the SS continue to deteriorate relations between them and the local population (much to our SS Officer protagonists chagrin), they'll start rallying to the KKK while the Old Aristocracy organize a sort of provisional gov't for the Neo-Confederacy. At the end of the day, The Texans and remnants of the US Army turn the tide after stopping a major German Offensive and any hopes of the Confederacy will get dashed, the Old Aristocracy realizing there's no way they'll be economically stable without the rest of the country.
The KKK will still remain the same old White Supremacist group, I wanted to get into some real injustice by pretty much making the public perception that they're heroes and models of American resistance and stubbornness. Meanwhile the US Government will pretty much revoke the citizenship and deny entry to any African Americans that fled to the Caribbean. In a way I want to make a situation that will be looked back as a national shame, give the story even more character.
The only non-whites or minorities who won't get completely fucked over will be the Natives in the Plains and the Hispanics in Texas and it'll only be because the White Texans and Deseret Mercenaries stand up for them
At the end of the day, The Texans and remnants of the US Army turn the tide after stopping a major German Offensive and any hopes of the Confederacy will get dashed, the Old Aristocracy realizing there's no way they'll be economically stable without the rest of the country.
You could write it in as an unresolved issue where the US government rather than fighting them opts to treat them as semi-autonomous, having suffered such appalling losses that they cannot afford to risk a civil war. Leaving it open to interpretation whether a future conflict will occur later on.
>The KKK will still remain the same old White Supremacist group, I wanted to get into some real injustice by pretty much making the public perception that they're heroes and models of American resistance and stubbornness.
Perhaps you could write end it with a poetic justice of sorts where the KKK's numbers plummet following the end of the German occupation, as many members have come to see their own hypocrisy after witnessing the excesses of Nazi racism. Maybe this is exemplified in one scene where the Grand Dragon of Georgia resigns because of the Klan's anti-semitism, declaring that he cannot in good conscious, parrot such beliefs when he has a Jewish grandchild whom he cherishes more than anything in the world (an actual parallel to this would be Thomas Dixon, who romanticized the original Klan in his novels, but denounced the revived one for its anti-Catholic and anti-Jewish bigotry).
Sounds corny, but I like the idea of individual redemption, especially through some type of familial relation.
The one where & Humanities never existed* al dente
Anon, you can't fuck this up, I'll actually be looking forward to this.
Is
it just me or does it look like Albert Speer kinda copied the
National Mall in Washington DC?
Well, what happens in the Great Lakes region? Hoosier here, don't tell me we get BTFO.
> diverges after the initial invasion of the US > initial invasion of the US > invasion
Thanks for posting this. It's been ages since I read AH and this was great
German Space Magic, duh
It becomes a manufacturing power house along with the Midwest and source for volunteers on the Appalachian front, no real direct conflict there bombing runs though
Thanks Anon, I have an autistic obsession with world building, maybe its my own way of escaping the one I live in
There was an attempt at a coherent post but your reliance on buzzwords has weakened your stance considerably.
This is terrible. Anon, if you do write this, don't fucking include Anne Frank.
>not using her as a means to make the premise even more edgy
faggot
That's Gay, let the KKK thrive for some grey morality
Plus the main thing that will be remembered in the south is the nazis freed slaves
Well, what happens in the Great Lakes region? Hoosier here, don't tell me we get BTFO.
> diverges after the initial invasion of the US > initial invasion of the US > invasion
Thanks for posting this. It's been ages since I read AH and this was great
German Space Magic, duh
It becomes a manufacturing power house along with the Midwest and source for volunteers on the Appalachian front, no real direct conflict there bombing runs though
Thanks Anon, I have an autistic obsession with world building, maybe its my own way of escaping the one I live in
There was an attempt at a coherent post but your reliance on buzzwords has weakened your stance considerably.
This is terrible. Anon, if you do write this, don't fucking include Anne Frank.
>not using her as a means to make the premise even more edgy
faggot
That's Gay, let the KKK thrive for some grey morality
Plus the main thing that will be remembered in the south is the nazis freed slaves
but but but that happened, only that they ended up loosing…
Thoughts on Isaac's Empire? I have more of their maps if y'all want them
Just looked it up, it's an interesting concept
What's with that weird India colony though First mentioned around page 24, I think.
Where would you expect Byzantium/Rome to colonize?
Why all Hitler haters want to kill him while he is a baby? Thats says a lot about Hitler haters in my opinion literraly baby killers also >Not killing him while he is a homeless in Viena so nobody gives a Damn
Not sending him to art school so he turns into another van Gogh. Fucking crazy, but harmless.
>Not saving the Austria-Hungarian Empire, preventing any need to stop Hitler Absolute brainlets desu
this so much https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_of_Greater_Austria
So much shit would be less fucked if WW1 never happened >revolutions get BTFOed by blueballed militarized empires >united dominion of Ireland that probably could Jew its way to independence >no Israel >Greece still has a chance to reclaim Constantinople >A-H keeps borders neat in the balklans >no nihilism that just eats Europe apart over the next few decades
I'd expect some trade ports but I find it hard to believe securing their own borders wouldn't come first
Was kind of enjoying it, but it didn't really make sense for Mongals to exist; plus the sudden wtf we need democracy kind of came out of nowhere
I honestly think Byzantium would end up more like Hyper Imperial Russia if it did well
https://youtu.be/UYJl5eLw2tA?t=2m24s
>that intro my sides
>THIS IS DRUMPF'S AMERICA! >it's starts trying to explain how Nazi America would be a surveillance state where freedom is only an illusion to appease the people
DO THE PEOPLE WHO MADE THE DOCUMENTARY NOT SEE THE IRONY HERE, FUCK THIS IS SO BAD ITS FUCKING HILARIOUS
MY SIDES
There is a very funny, movie about an SS penal legion called Misfit Brigade. It might help with inspiration
KR is a bit of a tossup. The places where shit happens like Europe and America are very interesting, but other places like China, Southeast Asia, and Africa that have plenty of potential hardly have anything.
