Were Buddha and Mahavira the same person? Or Was Buddha the Father of Mahavira?

Were Buddha and Mahavira the same person?

Or

Was Buddha the Father of Mahavira?

By Siddharti Buddhika

 

“Mahavira's father was Siddhartha and Gautam Buddha's childhood name was also Siddhartha.

This might be coincidence.

But  I read in History Book of Tamil Nadu Board that Gautam Buddha's  childhood name was Siddhartha and his wife name was Yasodhara.

And Mahavir's father name was Siddhartha and mother name was Yasodhara.”

Deepti Chahar

Gautama went through Jain asceticism and came out the other side. As the Buddha he questioned the Jain philosophy of world denial, and was not satisfied with the answer. The Jains still exist in India, the last remnants of the greatest world denying religions of them all. Goal of the Jain saint is to remove movement down to zero, in hopes of freeing the monad or soul from its imprisonment in form. The Jains in their obsession with non-killing as a means to liberation wear masks so they won’t kill a bug, sweep the walks, and don’t drink water during the day in case a bug falls in it.

I was at a funeral in a Baptist Church yesterday, and I hear the echoes of the Jains. Jesus was presented as a Visa Card that would give your soul access to heaven where you would finally be free of the “burden” of life, liberated, able to “fly away” from these painful mortal coils. Heaven is your reward for existing without shooting yourself or others.

The Buddha says, where are you going to go? This Now is It. What can you do, where can you go, that will make you better than you are right Now. It is always Now, it is always this Spot. Imagining a heave is just the way we avoid the life of Now.

It is possible, but Buddhist literature (pali canon) clearly mentions Nirgrantha Jñātaputra (pali: Nigantha Nātaputta) as another monk, and is probably older than the Buddha (who died when the Buddha was still alive, according to the pali canon).

Nirgrantha = without books (i.e. whose teachings were not recorded in writing by the time of his death), unlike the Buddha’s which were preserved from an early date in writing.

Jñātaputra = son (putra) of relatives/known people (jñāta)

This Jñātaputra was probably related or known personally to the Buddha, perhaps he could have been ‘Devadatta’ (the Buddha’s cousin) who was opposed to the Buddha.

This Nirgrantha Jñātaputra is commonly believed to be the Jain tirthankara Mahāvīra. If this identification is correct, then Buddhism treats the Buddha and Mahāvīra as different persons.

There maybe a possibility that Gautam Buddha was a follower of Bhagwan Mahavir and he left to find a middle way of enlightenment. Bhagwan Mahavir was last of the 24 Tirthankars, who later became Arihant and attained nirvana.

Bagwan Mahavir (Arihant)

Gautam Buddha

Some people may say there are similarities in their teachings but I am sure if they will read more about Jainism they will know why the similarities exists.

Arihants are the one who attained supreme knowledge so their teachings, known as jinvaani is the superset of any available information or teaching that can exist.

There are similarities on the religion founded by Buddha and Mahavira. They both belonged to rulers family (King).

Buddhism is little less stricter than Jainism. This is the reason acceptance of including non vegetarian in food got in and widely accepted in countries which follows Buddhism.

Jainism is very strict that might be the reason most of the principles are still intact.

Buddha came out of worldly pleasures but mahavir plucked his hairs thrown it and came to spiritual path.

Both don't believe in god. They both got enlightened, started by listening to their breath.

Both are not the same.

If one want to follow spirituality one may choose either of them.

It is historical fact that both personalities were different. Early Buddhist literature preserved in oral traditions do mentions Mahavira and other popular preachers of that time and their ideologies (Śramaṇa). Buddhism and Jainism both originated from Shramana tradition which preached different religious concept than Brahminism or early Hinduism. It is also noted in early Buddhist texts also mentions that Mahavira died in lifetime of Buddha. As the both religions originated from shared ideologies, there are several similarity in terminology and concepts but if you dig deeper both are very different.

The similarity of name can be counted as just coincidence. No more similarities can be established.

For example, Both religions deny Supreme God. While Jainism accepts existence of soul, Buddhism does not say anything about it. (Buddhism and Jainism)

The question of the two great preachers being the same emanates from the fact that many of their preaching s are similar. To enumerate a few

1. Both  of them were proponents of atheist religion. The point being one does not require God to attain nirvana/salvation.

2. Both preached Ahimsa.

3. The panch maha vratas of Jainism and eight ratnas of Buddhism are more or less similar.

4. Both attacked the prevalent caste system.

But these similarities are only a part of their ideology.

They differed on many fundamental aspects of their philosophical outlook.

1. Mahavira believed in the eternity of soul on the other hand Buddha's teaching led to the conclusion that everything including soul is in a continuous state of flux.

2. On practical level Jainism philosophy accepted path of extreme asceticism to attain Nirvana from cycle of life and birth on the other hand Buddha preached a middle path between extreme asceticism and self indulgence.

3. Anekantvad is one of the core metaphysical doctrine of Jainism, which says that there are many realities in the world and at any point we can know only an aspect of it. While Buddha never mentions it, but proposes universal law of causation (Pratitya-Samutpada).

There are many other differences between the two on very fundamental levels. I do not think that based on only some similarities between the two we could conclude that two were actually one and the same person.

There's proof that Lord Mahavira and Lord Gautam Buddha were different persons and their signs can be traced right from the place they were borned at. It’s Pavapuri in Bihar and Lumbini in Nepal respectively, both of these places are approximately 450 kilometres away from each other which will take maximum of 10 hours or more to reach at any one of this place. This figure is in today's scenario when we have a better transportation system. But what will you say of transportation in that era. Well it could have taken 2–3 days of continuous walking or maximum upto 4–5 days to reach at any one of the place.

So it's sensibly impossible for a single person to be born at two other places with a gap of almost 33 years after when we know they never attained to death, only thing they have achieved is salvation, which is free from the game of death and birth.

Other point I would like to raise is Nalanda University in Bihar, nearby Pavapuri, is a proof that they were different people. Local people have claimed this fact and the guides at university have gained such knowledge from their ancestors and holy books they have read so far. It has also been heard from the local people that Lord Buddha also used to preach people there at the university.

I still remember one guide who was taking care of our group claimed that there was a big Mango/Banyan Tree where Mahavir Bhagwan gave his first preaching to the people of that region in which he said that this world is made up of atoms.

Another interesting fact about this place is a small cave where King Ashoka used to light candles for peace. Sad story is that we’ll never get to see what Nalanda University really was, because it has been attacked by some Arab countries invader and was demolished by him.

Local People said that he was the Turkish leader Bakhtiyar Khilji who did this cruel act in 1193.

“It is said that the Jain tirthankara, Mahavira, spent 14 rainy seasons at Nalanda. Gautama Buddha too is said to have delivered lectures in a nearby mango grove named Pavarika and one of his two chief disciples, Shariputra, was born in the area and later attained nirvana there.”

Both Buddhism and Jainism. have many similarities and dissimilarities. As remarked by Monier Williams.

"Buddhism and Jainism were not related to each other as parent or child but rather children of common parent, born at different intervals, though at about the same period of time and marked by distinct characteristics, though possessing a strong family of resemblances". W.W. Hunter writes "Jainism is as much independent from other sects, specially from Buddhism as can be expected, from any other sect.

Notwithstanding certain similarities, it differ from Buddhism in its ritual and objects of worship."

Similarities :

(1) The source of both the religion is vedic religion and both and indebted to Upanishads

(2) Both Gautam Buddha and Mahavira belonged to princely families and not to priestly families.

(3) Both deny the existence of God.

(4) Both denied the authority of the Vedas and the necessity of performing sacrifices and rituals.

(5) Both have accepted the theories of Karma rebirth and Moksha.

(6) Both taught in the language of the common people i.e. Prakrit and not in Sanskrit which was the language of the priests.

(7) Both of them were opposed to animal sacrifices.

(8) Both of them admitted disciples from all the castes and from both sexes.

(9) Ahimsa is the prominent principle of both the religions.

(10) Both Buddhism and Jainism put stress on right conduct and right knowledge and not on religious ceremonial and ritual as the way to obtain salvation.

(11) Both, the religions came as a sort of reform of Hindu religion.

(12) Both the Religions were later on divided into two sects. Buddhism was divided into Mahayana and Hinayana. Jainism was divided into Svetambara and Digambara.

(13) Both had their own three gems or 'Tri Ratna'. Tri Ratna of Jainism were right philosophy right knowledge and right character. The Triratna of Buddhism were Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha.

(14) Both had three main religious texts. Tripitaka, i.e. Vinay Pitaka, Sutta Pitaka and Abhidhamma pitak were the three religious texts of Buddhism, whereas Anga i.e, Anga, Upanga and Mulga Rajitha were those of the Jainism.

Dis-similarities :

(1) Difference regarding conception Moksha :

According to Buddhism, a man attains Moksha when he ends all the desires and can attain it while living in the world. But according, to Jainism Moksha is freedom from miseries and can be attained only after death.

(2) Means of attainment of Moksha:

According to Buddhist Sangha is proper for attainment of Moksha and they hate self-mortifications and severe penances. Jainism believes in fasts and severest penances.

(3) Ahimsa :

Though both emphasise the principle of Ahimsa, yet Jainism is more strict in this connection.

(4) Soul:

Buddhists do not believe in the existence of soul whereas Jainism believes the existence of soul in every living being.

(5) Regarding Conduct:

Buddhism emphasises the eight noble paths whereas Jainism emphasises Tri Ratna.

(6) Language of Religious texts :

Most of the Jain texts are in Sanskrit and Prakrit whereas Buddhist text are in Pali.

(7) Their connection with Hinduism : Jain religion is nearer to Hinduism whereas Buddhism followed the policy of keeping away from Hinduism.

(8) Caste system :

Jains opposed it but Buddhism opposed and attacked vehemently.

(9) Royal support and patronage :

Buddhism received the royal support and patronage of kings like Ashoka and Kanishka. But Jainism could never receive strong royal support and Patronage.

(10) Propagation :

Buddhism spread to foreign countries whereas Jainism did not travel outside the boundaries of India.

Differences:

• Jainism is against non veg, Buddhists consume meat.
• Buddhist monks wear one piece of clothing, Jain Monks(digambar) don’t.
• Jain Monks eat once in 24 hours, that too after following some instincts. Sometimes they do not eat up to 5 days. Buddhist Monks eat twice daily.
• Due to some rigidity and complexity, Jainism is mostly concentrated to India, whereas Buddhists are spread all over.
• Buddha tried to attain salvation by giving up clothes like Mahavira but instead took to one piece of clothing(dhoti) after he found it too difficult.

Similarities:

• Both are inclined towards peace.
• Both believe the ultimate goal is salvation.
• Both originated and spread in South Asia.
• Both follow celibacy(giving up house, possessions etc).
• Both believe that Knowledge is most important.

Dhammapada a revered text in Buddhism mentions that Buddha was known to the pre-existing order of shamans. Another text mentions that initially Buddha joined the order shared by nigantha nataputta ( Mahavira) and lived an ascetic life of Jains tradition for few months of his penance. Some Jain texts also mentioned that suddhodana was member of order established by parshwanatha a predecessor of Jain tirthankara Mahavira.

I mentioned this to understand that why these two religions seem related and we find many similarities among two than differences.

Let's talk about similarities first:

1. Both denied the existence of creator God and heavenly fathers, And did not believe in authenticity of Vedas.
2. Both believed that the way to liberation or to enlightenment is self discipline and accepted dhamma or dharma is the way.
3. shared similar terminology and few rules of conducts are even same.
4. fourfold order of monks and nuns is quite Organized in both of the religions.
5. shared belief in the existence of geographical regions beyond the parameters of indian subcontinent (then called Bharatavarsha) access to which could not be gained by ordinary human beings.
6. laid emphasis on meditation, self improvement , compassion and nonviolence to attain inner peace.

Differences:

1. Vegetarianism is an integral part of Jainism while in Buddhism vegetarianism isn’t mandatory. what is brought to you can be consumed.
2. Jainism discourages monks and nuns from staying in a single place for a long time, with the exception of 4 months in the rainy season (chaturmas). Thus most of the time the Jain monks and nuns keep wandering staying in a place for just a few days. Some Theravada Buddhist monks also observe similar rules, but more often buddhist tradition promotes culture of staying in one monastery.
3. Jainism believe in existence of soul (jiva) while Buddhism rejects the idea of soul.
4. Jainism believes in non absolutism (anekantavada) while Buddhism denies extremes and practices middleway.
5. Nirvana for women is encouraged in Buddhism while in jainism only shwetambar tradition believes in women's liberation.

Initially both of these religions considered as atheist schools and anti-vedic traditions and has been suffered due to Hindu rivalries somehow Jainism managed to survive in India and is now reaching to various parts of the world while buddhism found it difficult in India and leaving less followers here prospered in other Asian nations that leaded to new differences in their practices out of adaptations and two look different now while they shared common shramana philosophy of ancient India which was also root of ajivika and samkhya sects of India.

Similarities :

1. Both religions follow enlightened person.
2. Both of them left home to find the truth and got enlighten.

Differences : (This are not meant to blame any religion, but to evaluate. Please excuse if it hurts any ones sentiments).

1. It very difficult to understand what enlightened person meant and what we understood. One difference which Jainism has is strict rules which were not given by Mahavir but Jainism took it. Mahavir said to meditate so much that you even forget food and other worldly pleasures, I see Jain’s skipping food for months to praise lord Mahavir, instead of following the path of meditation. Buddhism still focus on meditation.
2. Mahavir also taught sensitivity towards even microorganism. Here also he meant it to be developed by meditation and to become sensitive about it. Jainism took it as again strict rules to follow instead.
3. Buddhism does not have any complex rules for joining the Buddhist monastery. Jain saints pull out hairs of child/adults who want to join. Although Mahavir never enforced any such rule.
4. Buddhist monasteries have statues although Buddha was against any God or its form.

I can't tell you how they differ, except for the words they use to describe identical experiences, but they are the same in that they both fall short of providing enough Truth to become the only method necessary for any human, anywhere, on the face of this planet, to understand how to get to the pinnacles of revelatory experience of which they seem to speak.

Both Jainism and Buddhism are non-theistic dharmas. Buddhism rejects the idea of the self while Jainism accepts it. Both Jainism and Buddhism accept the idea of Karma. Jainism unlike Buddhism considers Karma to be particle like which sticks to the soul.

Place of worship Buddhist monasteries, temples, shrines. Temple Practices Meditation, the Eightfold Path; right view, right aspiration, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration Five vows of Truth, Non-violence, Non-stealing, Non-attachment, control over desires and senses. Greater emphasis on nonviolence and truth. Also follow 3 jewels of Right Perception, Right Knowledge and Right Conduct Place of origin Indian subcontinent India. Goal of religion To attain enlightenment and be released from the cycle of rebirth and death, thus attaining Nirvana. To gain liberation and be released from cycle of rebirths, adopt a path of nonviolence towards all living beings. Founder The Buddha (born as Prince Siddhartha) Rishabhdev- 1st Tirthankar in this era, Further revived by Vardhaman Mahavira- 24th and final Tirthankar of this era Use of statues and pictures Common. Statues are used as meditation objects, and revered as they reflect the qualities of the Buddha. Common. Literal Meaning Buddhists are those who follow the teachings of the Buddha. To become a Jina (liberated soul) by following the teachings of 24 Tirthankaras (ford-makers/teachers) Clergy The Buddhist Sangha, composed of bhikkhus (male monks) and bhikkhunis (female nuns). The sangha is supported by lay Buddhists. Monks, nuns. Belief of God The idea of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent creator is rejected by Buddhists. The Buddha himself refuted the theistic argument that the universe was created by a self-conscious, personal God. Jainism does not believe in a Creator God. Means of salvation Reaching Enlightenment or Nirvana, following the Noble Eightfold Path. Goal is to unshackle the soul from bondages of karma which results in misery due to many rebirths and deaths. Once soul is freed from these bondages, it achieves Nirvana and becomes perfect soul free from all attachments, in an eternal blissful state Human Nature Ignorance, as all sentient beings. In the Buddhist texts, it is seen that when Gautama, after his awakening, was asked whether he was a normal human being, he replied, "No". Human suffering is due to negative effects of bad karma and excessive attachment to material aspects of world. Life after death Rebirth is one of the central beliefs of Buddhism. We are in an endless cycle of birth, death and rebirth, which can only be broken by attaining nirvana. Attaining nirvana is the only way to escape suffering permanently. Until liberation is achieved, circle of rebirths and deaths continue due to Karma via incarnations in any life form on earth, as also heavenly and hellish life forms. View of the Buddha The highest teacher and the founder of Buddhism, the all-transcending sage. Buddha is considered as contemporary of Mahavira Marriage It is not a religious duty to marry. Monks and nuns do not marry and are celibate. Advice in the Discourses on how to maintain a happy and harmonious marriage. Marriage is a social convention and not linked to religion. But followers must strictly follow monogamy. Monks, though have renounced material world, hence strictly follow celibacy. Followers Buddhists Jains. Religion which atheists may still be adherents of Yes. Yes. Jains do not believe in the idea of a Creator God. The laws revolve around Karma. Good Karma lead to spiritual elevation and bad Karma and bad deeds to decline. Original Language(s) Pali(Theravada tradition) and Sanskrit(Mahayana and Vajrayana tradition) Ancient texts were written in various languages, predominantly in Magadhi, language prevalent at time of Mahavira and Buddha. View of other Dharmic religions Since the word Dharma means doctrine, law, way, teaching, or discipline, other Dharmas are rejected. Comradeship with other Dharmic religions. Holy days/Official Holidays Vesak day in which the birth, the awakening, and the parinirvana of the Buddha is celebrated. Paryushan festival Authority of Dalai Lama Dalai Lamas are tulkus of the Gelug school of Tibetan Buddhism. They are cultural figures and are independent of the doctrinal basis of Buddhism. N/A. Population 500-600 million 50-60 million Status of women No distinctions between men and women. Women are equal to men, and men are equal to women in the Sangha. The Buddha gave Men and Women equal rights and a major part in the Sangha. Women can become nuns. Symbols The conch, endless knot, fish, lotus, parasol, vase, dharmachakra (Wheel of Dharma), and victory banner. Swastika(used it long before it became a symbol for anti semitism). Concept of Deity n/a. According to some interpretations, there are beings in heaven realms but they are also bound by "samsara". They may have less suffering but have not yet achieved salvation (nibbana) Numerous deities known as Tirthankaras. But Jains do not worship them in literal sense of idol worship to ask favors. Rather, these Tirthankaras are venerated as ideal Men and teachers whose teachings should be followed. Principle This life is suffering, and the only way to escape from this suffering is to dispel one's cravings and ignorance by realizing the Four Noble Truths and practicing the Eightfold Path. Respect all living things. Attain liberation by avoiding and shedding of bad karma which is the cause of rebirths and all sufferings. Five vows and three jewels. Scriptures Tripitaka - a vast canon composed of 3 sections: the Discourses, the Discipline and the Commentaries, and some early scriptures, such as the Gandhara texts. Religious scriptures called Agamas. Many other canonical texts. Time of origin 2,500 years ago, circa 563 B.C.E. (Before Common Era) Very ancient. One of the oldest religions as origin of 1st Tirthankar is too ancient and obscure. Mahavira (24th Tirthankar) born in 599 B.C.E. Can atheists partake in this religion's practices? Yes. Yes Goal of Philosophy To eliminate mental suffering. Jainism is a way of life, adhere to teachings of Tirthankars, respect all life forms and end goal is to achieve Nirvana. Views on Other Religions Being a practical philosophy, Buddhism is neutral against other religions. Belief in pluralism and respect other religious viewpoints and try to accommodate them. Place and Time of origin The origin of Buddhism points to one man, Siddhartha Gautama, the historical Buddha, who was born in Lumbini (in present-day Nepal). He became enlightened at Bodhgaya, India and delivered his first set of teachings at a deer park in Sarnath, India.

Both Buddha and Mahavira have many similarities:

Both Gautam Buddha and Mahavira belonged to princely families and not to priestly families.

Both deny the existence of God.

Both denied the authority of the Vedas and the necessity of performing sacrifices and rituals.

Both have accepted the theories of Karma rebirth and Moksha.

Both taught in the language of the common people i.e. Prakrit and not in Sanskrit which was the language of the priests.

Both of them were opposed to animal sacrifices.

Both of them admitted disciples from all the castes and from both sexes.

Both of them admitted Ahimsa as the prominent principle.    

Founders of Buddhism and Jainism

Statue of Gautama Buddha

India is home to two religions, Jainism and Buddhism . Both religions are a study in similarities and yet have significant differences. Another point is that Buddhism despite originating in India vanished in the sub-continent, but spread overseas. In contrast Jainism has pockets of die hard supporters in India, but is non-existent outside India.

The founders of these two religions arrived on the scene together. The founder of the Jain religion is Mahavir's, while the Buddha is the founder of Buddhism. They both lived during the same period i.e. The 5th and 6th century BC. They also operated in the same area of North India, notably Bihar. Perhaps they were aware of each other, but they never met.

Mahavira

Statue of Mahavira

Like Gautama , Mahavira was also a prince. He was like Gautama born into Hindu household,perhaps that is the reason both religions draw heavily on Hindu thought. Mahavira was like Gautama disgusted with the misery of the world and renounced his kingship and became an ascetic. He roamed the plains of North India as a recluse for 12 years. He is then supposed to have achieved eternal knowledge. Mahavira like Buddha believed in the immortality of the soul.

Mahavira also believed that the body was only a cover for the soul. He believed that to be a true believer, one must cast the body aside. He advocated not covering the body and remaining naked. Thus Mahavir roamed as a naked man of god.

The origin of both the religions is similar. Buddhism got state patronage and the Buddha is recognized as an Avatar of Vishnu. Emperor Ashoka spread Buddhism worldwide, Jainism never had state patronage. The austere religion thus appealed to very few people, but small groups of Jains are active all over India. Both religions are in fact offshoots of Hinduism, which is the Mother

Lineage

Gautama was 28th Buddha

Mahavira was 24th Tirthankara

Place of birth

Both born in almost same place (when you consider the size of the subcontinent). Buddha at Bihar-Nepal border in Lumbini or Kapilavastu, Mahavira at Vaishali in Bihar province about 150 miles south west of Lumbini.

Birth

Mahavira 540 BCE–468 BCE

The times of Gautama’s birth and death are uncertain: most historians in the early 20th century dated his lifetime as circa 563 BCE to 483 BCE, but more recent opinion dates his death to between 486 and 483 BCE or, according to some, between 411 and 400 BCE. However, at a symposium on this question held in 1988, the majority of those who presented definite opinions gave dates within 20 years either side of 400 BCE for the Buddha’s death. According to Pali scholar K. R. Norman, a life span for the Buddha of c. 480 to 400 BCE (and his teaching period roughly from c. 445 to 400 BCE) “fits the archaeological evidence better”.(Wikipedia)

Family

Both were princes

Mahavira left home at age 30, Buddha at 29.

Death

Buddha died at age of 80 at Kusinara, Uttar Pradesh province.

Mahavira died at age of 72 at Pawapuri, Bihar about 200 miles east of Kusinara.

Philosophy

Both are Sramana schools.

Both schools share the word arahant when referring to liberated ones.

Both assert right mind is superior to worship. Both reject the idea of a Creator God. Both speak of finding peace through self-control and renunciation.

Statue of Mahavira

Statue of Buddha

(both statues chosen from Indian art; Korean and Thai Buddhas are different from Indian Buddha)

Either they were the same person or if Buddha was born about 20 – 30 years after Mahavira, he must have heard stories of Mahavira and emulated him by leaving his home. Buddha’s extreme asceticism in early years bears hallmark of Jainism which is very austere and puts lot of stress on inflicting pain upon the body (the Jain monks do not shave but tear out month old beard; it is horrible to watch and they are absolutely silent when they do it). Buddha it seems to me began as some sort of believer in Jainism and then founded a new school because he did not like going overboard with austerity.           

They do not have Nibbana but Kevala Jnana (pure or absolute knowing) which results in Moksha.

In Jainism, Karma begins with material or dravya karma -- submicroscopic specs which pervade everywhere in Universe and when they adhere to human consciousness gives rise to bhava karma -- emotions and feelings.

The Origin of Buddhist Meditation by Alexander Wynne analyses the Ariyapariyesana Sutta account of the Buddha’s study under his two meditation teachers. He concludes that they were historical persons, that they taught the Buddha practices that are described in certain Brahmanical texts, and that, while the Buddha rejected the teachers’ views of liberation, vestiges of their influence are evident in his later teaching.

For Bronkhorst, the meditative ‘mainstream’ of the Buddha’s world was not the practice of Brahmanical yoga but the self-mortification of the Jains and others which, according to texts such as the Mahasaccaka Sutta, the Bodhisattva undertook after he left the two teachers. In his recently translated book, Greater Magadha, Bronkhorst argues that this was the main practice of the sramanas (the wandering mendicants whom the Bodhisattva joined when he left home) and that the Brahmins (the other full time religious practitioners of the Buddha’s world) were an alien group whose teachings were irrelevant to his quest. Where Wynne shares with his colleague Richard Gombrich the belief that ‘The central teachings of the Buddha came as a response to the central teachings of the old Upanishads,’

Bronkhorst argues that the Upanishads in fact postdate the Buddha and that the only influences on him were non-Brahmanical. Wynne believes that the story of the two teachers in the Ariyapariyesana Sutta is authentic while the Mahasaccaka Sutta account of the austerities are a later interpolation, whereas Bronkhorst thinks that the two teachers are bogus while the austerities are authentic.

I sometimes experience "synchronicity"-esque events in my life - (To quote Wiki: "Synchronicity (German: Synchronizität) is a concept, first introduced by analytical psychologist Carl Jung, which holds that events are "meaningful coincidences" if they occur with no causal relationship yet seem to be meaningfully related."). For example, I'll think of someone out of the blue and all of the sudden they call me. Or I'll be thinking about a certain topic and then someone will just start randomly talking about that very thing (and not something that was just on the news). I don't dwell on these things, but they kind of show me how our thoughts and experiences can actually be bound up with those of other beings. I'm sure most of us have had such experiences...

Now, you have what scholars call the Axial age (~800-300 BC), during which time Buddha, Mahavira, Zoroaster, Confucius, Plato and other world teachers lived. Jesus showed up not terribly long after this period. And according to the Pali Suttas, it seems that there were many, many beings who were able to attain enlightenment even after listening to just one of the Buddha's discourses, or practicing the Dhamma for a relatively short time. Most non-Buddhist scholars (and even Buddhist scholars for that matter) will probably tend to think of the Axial age as arising out of radical changes in human social organization: more people were living in big-cities, there were specialized labor forces/castes, inequalities may have become more pronounced, new technologies were emerging etc...

But just think, "here comes the Buddha" - the Bodhisatta journey towards supreme self-awakening is like a giant wave that is gaining momentum and finally breaks under the Bodhi tree. That wave wasn't an isolated phenomena, it was carrying a lot along with it. I know that not everyone thinks of the Jatakas as particularly trustworthy accounts, but I just read one which featured Nigantha Nataputta, and other prominent spiritual teachers of Buddha's time (https://suttacentral.net/en/ja528) - needless to say, the Buddha was the hero, and they were the bad guys.

Anyway, I suppose I am putting forward the hypothesis that perhaps some of the strange similarities we see between different traditions (Buddhism and Jainism, in particular) can be explained in part by a synchronicity-like phenomena. The main thing that was happening was the Bodhisatta was getting closer to full awakening, an absolutely momentous event, but a lot of peripheral things were happening as well owing to the Buddha's tsunami like effect. The ripples were felt all over the world, all over the universe actually, but especially affected were those in closest proximity to the Buddha himself (N.India).

I know this is not a totally original idea, I have heard Robert Thurman speculating along these lines, and I'm sure many others as well.

a piety that is popular enough among Theravāda Buddhists for me to have encountered it a few times, that basically says: "The Buddha has done the work. You don't need to do the work. You need to study. The Buddha has done the (intellectual? soteriological? 'dhammic'?) work for you."

Obviously this kind of Buddhist sentiment is not necessarily found in traditional Buddhist scriptures, but I have had a fair number of Buddhists describe the religion to me in such a manner.

Your post reminded me of the uppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ anuppādā vā tathāgatānaṃ discourse in the Paccaya Sutta:

“And what, bhikkhus, is dependent origination? ‘With birth as condition, aging-and-death comes to be’: whether there is an arising of Tathagatas or no arising of Tathagatas, that element still persists, the stableness of the Dhamma, the fixed course of the Dhamma, specific conditionality. A Tathagata awakens to this and breaks through to it. Having done so, he explains it, teaches it, proclaims it, establishes it, discloses it, analyses it, elucidates it. And he says: ‘See! With birth as condition, bhikkhus, aging-and-death.”

Regarding the "There is no claim made that you can enter Nirvana because Buddha did" claim, I think it might be a bit more complicated. The principle of the Dhamma is said to be a "fixed" element. The Dhamma is true regardless of whether or not a Tathāgata has arisen to expound it.

I think it might remain to be seen if it is functionally possible to enter nirvāṇa without an Tathāgata awakening to dependent origination, breaking through to it, explaining it, teaching it, proclaiming it, establishing it, disclosing it, analyzing it, & elucidating it. Do pratyekabuddhāḥ become enlightened via the contemplation of dependent origination? Or some other method known only to them? They apparently are 'known' for not leaving Dharma-dispensations, so the question seems unanswerable.

Then again, according to some interpretations of the Pāli narrative, the Buddha did just that more or less on his own. Why don't we all do it on our own too? I suspect we don't, and go with the Buddhadharma route, is because the claim that 'anyone' can enter nirvāṇa might actually be predicated on the Buddha's accomplishment of it after all, and the framing of the Buddha as an idealized 'everyman'. This is not really coherent with the Buddha being "the perfectly awakened being" (i.e. 'different' from deluded you), but collections of religious views are very rarely completely coherent, especially on a social level, not a personal one.

Because as long as the Buddha's dispensation is around and we know it, us claiming to have attained nibbana on our own would be plagiarism.

Credit where credit is due.

The Buddha or a Buddha "does the work for us" in the sense of realizing Nibbana and helpfully pointing out the way to Nibbana for us. There is no Buddhist dispensation and no one causes Nibbana or the path to be valid and yes, you too, could do the same as the historical Buddha did with Buddhism's useful tips or without (how vanishingly unlikely this is and why you would ignore a useful map is another question). Explaining this fundamental aspect of Buddhism was a major reason why Tathāgatagarbha theory was later felt necessary.

I have no reason to believe that Buddha did not exist, but it seems clear that it is religiously unimportant in Buddhism if the prince of the Shakya clan never lived or if it was really a guy named Joe or Mahavira as long as the teachings can be shown to be useful and true, much like mathematics or physics. Certainly the historical Buddha seemed to preach that!

In contradistinction, Jesus is seen as redeeming mankind by his sacrifice. He causes redemption. As the intersection of God and history and the fulfillment of specific prophecy, his historicity is religiously important in traditional Christianity. None of this is true in Buddhism.

I wouldn't be surprised to find instances in Buddhist texts of Buddha being called Mahavira (Great Hero) if you read them in the original language. Check this out https://books.google.com/books?id=Pw0q_ ... 22&f=false Is that a Buddhist text being quoted? Doing a search for "vairocana abhisambodhi tantra" to find out, I stumbled upon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavairocana_Tantra Note the name, "Mahavairocana Tantra", an explicitly a Buddhist text. Is it the same one? Obviously related to Tibetan Buddhism more than Theravada, but note this "Vairocana (also Vairocana or Mahāvairocana, Sanskrit: वैरोचन) is a celestial buddha who is often interpreted, in texts like the Flower Garland Sutra, as the Dharma Body of the historical Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama)." ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vairocana )

Mahāvairocana means "Great (X) which proceedeth from the Sun", or "Great Illumination" (one could even say "Great Sunbeam Buddha"). It is not related etymologically to Mahavira. But there is still a possible syncretic connection in the figure. He is very similar to Vishnu in many respects, who in the trimurti is the "upholder". Mahavairocana plays a similar role in some Buddhisms.

Sure, it's a stock epithet. All Indian religious eminences get called 'mahāvīra' by somebody or other, just as all of them get called 'bhagvan' by somebody or other.

In the Buddha's case 'mahāvīra' is used of him 258 times in the Pali Tipiṭaka. One will find it in both the Vinaya Piṭaka and in all five Nikāyas of the Sutta Piṭaka, but most frequently in the verse texts of the Khuddaka Nikāya.